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Author Topic: 2nd 607A too early  (Read 5094 times)

Neptune66

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2nd 607A too early
« on: December 24, 2010, 06:52:15 AM »
Loved my 607A so much, I bought another with the main reason being to have one in the wings in case anything ever happened to the first one. But I made [what I now think was] a mistake in asking the driller to make it a smidgen stronger than the first ball.  

It could be "operator error" (i.e. my fault) or different lane conditions, but so far the second ball makes it's move too early. The pin on all my other equipment is over the ring finger, but is to the right of that finger on the second (newer) one.

I don't blame the driller, but is there a way I can have the second ball adjusted to be more like the first without complete redrill?  Would a well placed weight hole be enough to delay the reaction?  I always thought the main purpose of a weight hole was for an earlier roll, but someone recently told me it depends where its put. That it could be used to delay the reaction too.

I am not unhappy with the shape or strength of the reaction. I love the flip this ball makes.  But it's still at OOB surface (i.e. polished) and although i can use it earlier in league (on heavier oil), that wasn't what I was after with this particular purchase.

Thanks for any info suggestions.

 

tizzle

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Re: 2nd 607A too early
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2010, 05:44:58 PM »
Neptune,

I would hit that thing with a 4000 pad, factory polish then put it on a spinner and apply something like the power house delay reaction polish or something that has slip agents in it! This should give you a much more delayed reaction and should be very aggressive off the pattern. I would do that before adding any kind of weight hole.
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Doug Sterner

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Re: 2nd 607A too early
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2010, 09:40:54 PM »
notsohotshot...as a matter of fact I did mention Valentino UFO which does the same thing as Delayed Reaction but better in my opinion.
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River700

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Re: 2nd 607A too early
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2010, 10:42:12 PM »
quote:
River700
How many bowling balls have you drilled?
I need not read Mo's article....I know what does what thank you.
Placing a weight hole inside the PAP towards the pin decreases flare and increases overall length, due to flare or oil rings becoming tighter or more on top of themselves, which makes the oil stay on the surface longer, delaying or slow it's response to friction.
The path of the PAP, as it migrates while the bowling ball is traveling down the lane, generally is along a line that is either on or just above the thumbhole. Thus placing a weight hole in the lower quadrant or down the VAL, will indeed allow the ball to react earlier and read the midlanes sooner, as well as generally increasing the overall reaction.
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Don't have to drill any balls to see the reaction with different weight holes. A person can watch video after video on balls having different placements of weight holes along with surface and see the differences in that alone. The pin to pap distance is what controls flare potential initially. Using the dual angle layout method, the smaller the drill angle which is the angle between the pin to psa line and the pin to pap line will cause it to roll sooner, increase the angle and it will role later. Decrease the val angle, the angle between the pin to pap line and the val line and the ball will rev faster and read the friction sooner which is what Neptune is seeing on his second 607A along with a slightly shorter pin to pan distance. Obviously changing the surface is the first thing before a weight hole. One of the products that wasn't mentioned here is Control-it. However, by doing such a drastic change in surface is he really creating a reaction almost like his first 607A? He should of had the second one drilled the same and added a little surface or use a weight hole to make it slightly stronger. But, he is where he is at now starting with a surface change and going from there.

By the way, what makes you not want to read Morich's articles on layouts and weight holes?
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River700

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Re: 2nd 607A too early
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2010, 10:45:43 PM »
quote:
I know you're getting somewhat conflicting answers to your question... but here goes.
Both the guys are correct about changing the surface, thats your first move.
If that just doesn't do it for you, please direct your pro shop guy to http://www.morichbowling.com/Drilling/GradientLineBalanceHole/GradientLineBalanceHole.htm and tell him you're looking for a P1 balance hole.



Thanks 67tbird for the suggestion for Neptun, a very good wealth of info
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Neptune66

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Re: 2nd 607A too early
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2010, 05:22:02 AM »
I can follow SOME of the more technical explanations given, and I get the general gist which is to try some surface changes first before messing with either a weight hole or revised drilling.

Also want to re-emphasize in response to Charlest''s comment:

"(ASIDE: I must assume you know that when you asked your driller to make the ball stronger, he made it earlier and hook more.)"

Yes.  I very much aware that this is MY fault. Not the drillers.

I should never have mentioned anything about making the 2nd ball slightly stronger. It was more of an afterthought than anything else, and I should have kept my mouth shut.

I was hoping for a TINY incremental difference between the two balls, and it is possible that it IS a tiny difference in actual specs. I think the drller misunderstood what I wanted in this case too.

I only wanted the ball to go a smidgen longer and thus have a smidgen more backend than the first ball.  Instead...  when I picked up the ball, the driller showed me the pin placement and said the ball would roll slightly sooner. This was not what I intended, but I figured it was already drilled, and I still have decent speed, so I would give it a shot.

Bottom line, the adjustment was in the opposite direction of what I wanted.

Getting a bit off topic now, but what is a nice way to tell my driller that I did not want the ball to start earlier.  That when said I wanted it to be just a little bit stronger, I meant at the backend.

It''s mostly my fault, but then again he knew why I bought ball number 1 (go long and snap hard on medium to light oil), and I even have several conversations with him afterward about why I liked it so much. It was because of those conversations that I was sure he knew I wanted the backend stronger, not an earlier roll.

Now I''m just looking for the best way to "fix" a ball that is not really broken, but is not AS fit for the purpose I bought it for as I would like, and now overlaps with other equipment rather than serving as a backup piece for the first 607A (I have plenty of other balls that can get into an earlier roll, so i dont want this ball to do that).

Thank you to everyone for your suggestions and information, whether technical or common sense. Regardless of what I end up doing, I appreciate the information and hopefully can work with the driller to undo what I did when I opened my mouth at the wrong time (really wanted a duplicate ball, and was just thinking aloud about what it would be like if it was a tad stronger ----- At the backend !!!!).

Edited on 12/25/2010 7:25 AM

scotts33

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Re: 2nd 607A too early
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2010, 05:40:43 AM »
I'd echo River700's statement "Another thing, is that anytime you have a decreased val angle the ball is going to read the friction sooner and harder based on the dual angle layout method on the morich bowling site."

I have seen this on a Red QZ-1 that I have a decreased VAL angle on vs. a 505A that has a larger sum including a larger VAL angle.  These balls are of similar overall strength and pearl covers.  

505A http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q29/scotts33/Bowling%20Equipment/Track505A.jpg

Red QZ-1 http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q29/scotts33/Bowling%20Equipment/RedQZ-1.jpg

Note pin positions and therefore the decreased VAL angle on the QZ-1 vs. the 505A.  Hence the QZ-1 will finish harder and works better on carried down lanes than the 505A but the 505A works best on opened up lanes with not much carry down.  Both these balls I can use later in sets or when the heads start going.

So, what I am saying is you might find your 2nd 607ASE a good ball to have later in tourney blocks moving in and can move off the sport harder and give you better carry and since it's a solid it may handle carry down better.  I wouldn't give up on the layout yet.  For me, I like enough difference in balls if they all react the same you pigeonhole yourself IMO.
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Scott

Cobalt Bomb

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Re: 2nd 607A too early
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2010, 05:52:17 AM »
Maybe the direction you should go is to polish 607A number one, the original one.

JustRico

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Re: 2nd 607A too early
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2010, 06:34:56 AM »
There is something called practical application...reading articles, as well as watching videos is one thing...there is another which is knowing how and when to apply certain factors.
Ergo, YOU do need to have an understanding of how and what creates ball reaction, for every bowler-not in the perfect world of videos, along with properly understanding how to adjust ball reaction after the fact. Merely watching every video & reading every article is a moot point if you do not know how it applies properly.
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River700

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Re: 2nd 607A too early
« Reply #24 on: December 25, 2010, 05:15:23 PM »
quote:
There is something called practical application...reading articles, as well as watching videos is one thing...there is another which is knowing how and when to apply certain factors.
Ergo, YOU do need to have an understanding of how and what creates ball reaction, for every bowler-not in the perfect world of videos, along with properly understanding how to adjust ball reaction after the fact. Merely watching every video & reading every article is a moot point if you do not know how it applies properly.
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The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.



Point taken. I have measured my own equipment and can see why each ball reacts the way it does according to the dual angle layout and gradient line balance hole technique. So, in other words I do have some practical experience.

So, basically you are saying that you think that what you know is correct, when in fact there's a whole lot more to this stuff than what you are willing to dive into and learn isn't this pretty close? You said you don't need to read the articles on the Morich bowling site or possibly any others well then that pretty much answers the question then.  

Scotts along with 67tbird is backing me up as they use this info from Morich and knows exactly what their stuff will do, no need to guess.

You still haven't answered the question on why you won't read the articles on the Morich bowling site....
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tburky

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Re: 2nd 607A too early
« Reply #25 on: December 25, 2010, 06:03:56 PM »
Morich articles are nice. But to be quite honest if a person does not throw a ball worth a hoot his theories are pointless. Besides how many average league bowlers understand the difference in their ball reaction (surface, weight holes, lay out etc) on the lane?

Edited on 12/25/2010 8:04 PM

Doug Sterner

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Re: 2nd 607A too early
« Reply #26 on: December 25, 2010, 09:20:09 PM »
River.....JustRico has been in the bowling industry long enough and has done more research than most of us put together...hence his reason for not needing to read Mo's article....
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River700

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Re: 2nd 607A too early
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2010, 12:27:28 AM »
Doug, that is fine But, what he is saying some weight holes do compared to what I have seen along with the different videos tells a different story, just some info.

Would of been better for Rico to just that in the first place
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Doug Sterner

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Re: 2nd 607A too early
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2010, 06:42:43 PM »
Considering the fact that he used to work for Brunswick and that Brunswick and MoRich have collaborated on many projects over the last several years, it's pretty safe to say that Mo and Ric have a fairly good knowledge of each other and each other's thoughts and theories.

Yes weighthole position has an influence on ball reaction BUT hole size and placement have an effect that is significantly LESS than coverstock prep.

You want more length out of the ball? use a 3000 or 4000 pad to start. IF that's still nor enough add some polish, or better yet, a slip agent to get the ball downlane.

Now if you want the length without the "bungee flip" then you are going to need some underlying surface before you polish.

If you can get a reaction close to what you are looking at by altering the surface then use the weighthole to fine tune the final reaction.
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Doug Sterner
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Doug Sterner
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