Post by: Strider on April 11, 2004, 06:04:51 AM
I have a 15# Animal on the way. 3" pin, 3 oz top. I'm looking for something that gets through the heads pretty clean and makes a big move on the backend. Looking for recovery. I don't really have anything that really opens up the lane for me. My specs and other equipment are in my profile. I've read some of the other similar threads and plan on going back through them in more detail.
Seems like the most common recommendation was to put the pin where you normally have sucess and move the MB near the VAL. That should work well for me since I've liked several balls with the pin just over my ring finger (4.25" from PAP) and kicking the CG right some.
I thought I remembered reading something about the Morpheus core lowering your track some and that pins below the fingers were preferred. Can I get a clarification?
I was planning on throwing a game or so before deciding on the weighthole location. Do the normal rules still apply? On PAP for smoothing the reaction and outside PAP for more flare. Should I have a target positive weight after drilling the weigthhole, around 1/2 oz?
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Penn State Proud
That's "Mr. Toe" to you.
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Post by: cooksey on April 11, 2004, 09:10:51 PM
cooksey
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" Focus the next shot is critical"
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on April 11, 2004, 10:57:59 PM
I am going to try to touch on every aspect of your message one at a time, and hope I do not end up missing anything.
I am the one that has said several times that it was suggested by Del W. and Mo Pinel while I was attending a clinic that the core was being better utilized when you kept the pin below the finger line. I had never really been able to do that with very many balls and not have my track clip my middle finger. With the Morpheous (or any variation of it) I have never had that problem, so I try to keep my pin below the finger line (be it below the bridge or drilled PIN 2 inches from PAP).
The normal "rules" still apply for weight holes. Atleast that is what I have always used when I have to add a weighthole to this kind of core. My rule, some pro shops do it, some do not, but I definately wait to see the ball used on the lanes before I apply the weighthole. Being able to use that as a tool to fine tune the ball for the bowler's desired reaction is something that should not be passed up.
I am not completely sure that placing the MB near your VAL is a good idea for the reaction you want to get out of the ball. When you place the MB near or on the VAL it makes the ball want to read the lanes sooner, getting into an early roll. I personally, and many of those I have drilled Animals for have had success with placing the MB in that position, but our games called for that kind of layout.
For alot of backend reaction and to have alot of recovery down the lane (after looking at your stats in your profile), I would suggest placing your pin 4in from PAP, which will place it near your ring finger. I would keep it just below your ring finger and I would put the MB about 1 1/2-2 inches right of your thumb. When you put the MB in this location you are getting it in a stronger position, but it should keep enough of the strength for the backend of the lane. Thus giving you the recovery you want.
NOW----with that entire paragraph said........if you have not tried a ball drilled with the MB your VAL.......do it with this ball. I believe that brings out the best characteristics of the core/cover combo and the general nature of the ball. IF you decide to do this, try the PIN in relatively the same position.
PLEASE do not be afraid to adjust the coverstock on this ball. You may be able to go with the MB on your VAL and add a light polish and still get that recovery (depending on the lane condition you are shooting on). If you want to use it on a little more oil do not be afraid to take that 1000grit compound finish off of it.
If you have any other questions, feel free to message me.
Goodluck
-EX-
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Owner/Operator
C-G Pro Shop
Post by: tenpinspro on April 11, 2004, 11:03:22 PM
If I get tired of this, I'll be in trouble and have to close the shop
. In regards to the Animal, how much oil are you planning to use this ball on? I do recommmend to keep the pin under as having the pin over on these balls tend to send it down the lane quite a bit. I'd suggest something in the lines of a 4x3.25 mb with the pin under and mb on or slightly past val. The 4 inch pin will help clear heads but placing the mb on or slightly past val will help ensure midlane reaction for your backend finish. Again, what's more important here is what cover we need to bring the coverstock to in order to match your condition. Out of box will promote pretty good length, 1000 for med/lite and 600-800 for the heavier stuff. Based on your revs for your speed, I'd say you hook a fair amount(slight swing) but doesn't look like you normally stand left and just throw right. My pap is somewhat close to yours but I'm only at 15mph so I know how much I can make this ball move. I don't know what your span is but if it isn't very long, we'd have to force the pin under which might create some thumb weight which then can be drilled out with the weighthole placed below midline. I also tend to start a little on the stronger side for positive statics(maybe 3/4?) as it can always be drilled out vs not putting enough in to begin with seeing as how you wnat a stronger backend reaction for this ball. Hope this helps bud and let me know if you need anything else...thanks.Edit: Strider, I thought of the mb where Excaliber mentioned(strong) but that would tend to work better on a drier condition more so vs heavier oil. That's why I suggested placing it on val or past to ensure the midlane reaction without over skidding, thanks.
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Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Pro Shop Staff
Vise Grip Staff
Edited on 4/11/2004 11:01 PM
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on April 11, 2004, 11:34:10 PM
I agree with Rick, it is going to depend on the lane condition you are bowling on. If they are on the heavier side, you should with no question place the MB on your VAL.
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Owner/Operator
C-G Pro Shop
Post by: Strider on April 12, 2004, 12:58:29 AM
I would describe the shot as being a little wetter than medium, but not heavy oil. I'm not looking for a super late snap or anything, just something that will let a low level tweener move deeper inside, throw right, and get it to come back and hit.
I haven't been throwing the ball well lately, so I thought a new toy was in order. My track seems to have migrated away from my fingers a bit. I'm not sure what I've been doing. I'm trying to stay behind the ball more to avoid overturning or chicken winging it. The end of May (Ron C's get together) can't come soon enough.
My span is right about 4 1/2". I have a spinner, so adjusting the cover isn't a problem. I assume Scotch Brite would be safer than sandpaper? Sounds like pin under ring finger (maybe bridge) and MB kicked out near or on the VAL should be pretty good. I can always fine tune with surface adjustments, or even change the weighthole if necessary. Like I said, I'll throw it a bit before any weighthole is drilled to see what reaction change is needed.
--------------------
Penn State Proud
That's "Mr. Toe" to you.
Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive (http://"http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm")
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on April 12, 2004, 01:16:04 AM
Since that is the case, go with the Pin under your ring finger and the MB on or even 1/4 of an inch beyond your VAL. This layout will give you recover, but not super late or super snapping kind of hook.
I prefer scotchbrite over sandpaper for any particle ball. The Animal I have drilled leverage was lightly sanded with grey scotchbrite(800grit).
Goodluck
-EX-
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Owner/Operator
C-G Pro Shop
Post by: Strider on April 12, 2004, 03:14:11 AM
I know the Morpheus core is a different "Animal" (gag, retch), but I'm still a little concerned with putting the pin low and kicking the MB way right. That does seem to be the concensus though...
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Penn State Proud
That's "Mr. Toe" to you.
Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive (http://"http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm")
Post by: srlunatic on April 12, 2004, 04:35:06 AM
Here is my 2 cents for you....
I took a suggestion from Rick...(tenpinspro) about putting the pin under...mb slightly past the VAL for use in the soup. I usually clip the thumb when I drill a ball pin under, but have no problems with this ball at all with that. I took the surface down to 600 grit and let me tell you....all I can say is WOW!!......I was quite surprised at the length I still got out of this drill as it is really meant to get the ball rolling early, but it still gets down the lane a bit...but when it makes it move watch out!!! Strong and controlled arc and enough energy stored to shred racks.....I do have a weighthole on mine...in fact here is the layout as suggested by Rick..
ANIMAL: 3.5 (under fingers) x 2 to 2.5 mb past val. I want you to twist the ball so that the pin is beneath the fingers(3.5 should be slightly to the right of your ring but under) and the mass bias past your val slightly, weighthole on midline 6 inch out is okay. Also take this coverstock to about 600 for the heavy oil. This layout is for extreme oil and creates very early roll, especially with the 600 finish.
Used this on a 41ft heavy oil sport shot........and was too strong if you could belive it.....reved early...but didn't really make it's move to midlane and then charged hard like the dickens. Totally impressed me and can't wait to find a flood to see it work it's magic..
Hope this helps!!
Mike
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My personal savior is common sense.
How can being so RIGHT be so very WRONG?
Post by: Strider on April 12, 2004, 04:46:51 AM
quote:
ANIMAL: 3.5 (under fingers) x 2 to 2.5 mb past val. I want you to twist the ball so that the pin is beneath the fingers(3.5 should be slightly to the right of your ring but under) and the mass bias past your val slightly, weighthole on midline 6 inch out is okay. Also take this coverstock to about 600 for the heavy oil. This layout is for extreme oil and creates very early roll, especially with the 600 finish.
Hope this helps!!
Mike
--------------------
My personal savior is common sense.
How can being so RIGHT be so very WRONG?
I always wondered about that terminology. Does that mean 6" out from the grip center? Thanks for the reassurance on the low pin/MB position Mike.
--------------------
Penn State Proud
That's "Mr. Toe" to you.
Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive (http://"http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm")
Edited on 4/12/2004 4:39 AM
Post by: tenpinspro on April 12, 2004, 08:26:48 AM
Yes, I was referring to 6 inches straight across from grip center(for Srlunatic). Depending upon ball specs, sometimes we don't have the option to fine tune the weighthole if we want to achieve certain static weights. That's why I mentioned the term "forcing the pin under" in your case because with a 3 inch pin, you most likely will end up with thumb and that will get the ball started sooner. It really depends on the overall look/reaction that is desired as to whether or not you want to have some negative statics to help it stand up.
Based on your other info about having the lower track, I definitely would recommend to place the mb past val as Excaliber also stated. I can't say enough times how crucial the mass bias is on the Morpheus cores, they really help dictate movement more then I've ever seen. I'm sure that's due to the fact of how strong the differential is comparatively to older technology.
Please also remember to place the pin from 3.75 to 4(under), I'm lowering your distance slightly because of your lower track. As Srlunatic mentions, the Animal still gets down the lane further then expected but this should still give you plenty of finish on the backend. Hope this helps...
ps. Pls fix spell check...somebody?
--------------------
Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Pro Shop Staff
Vise Grip Staff
Edited on 4/13/2004 6:22 AM
Post by: Strider on April 13, 2004, 12:33:19 AM
quote:
Based on your other info about having the lower track, I definitely would recommend to place the mb past val as Excaliber also stated. I can't say enough times how crucial the mass bias is on the Morwheus cores, they really help dictate movement more then I've ever seen. I'm sure that's due to the fact of how strong the differential is comparatively to older technology.
Please also remember to place the pin from 3.75 to 4(under), I'm lowering your distance slightly because of your lower track. As Srlunatic mentions, the Animal still gets down the lane further then expected but this should still give you plenty of finish on the backend. Hope this helps...
ps. Pls fix spell check...somebody?
--------------------
Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Pro Shop Staff
Vise Grip Staff
I plan on fixing my track. I'm throwing the ball poorly right now. The lower track (and scores) are the result. I normally track within 1/2" of the thumb and 1" of the fingers. I'm still close to the thumb, but drifting further from the fingers. Something in my timing is keeping me from getting good (consistent) leverage at the bottom of the swing. Pin between my finger bridge is 4" from my PAP.
--------------------
Penn State Proud
That's "Mr. Toe" to you.
Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive (http://"http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm")
Post by: tenpinspro on April 13, 2004, 06:42:20 AM
For what it's worth, I have a good friend and customer who tracks almost the same as you're doing right now. I worked on correcting his timing because he's too early with the ball(relative to feet) causing the overturning with his hand. I delayed his pushaway in his approach to create a little better "late timing" and it's working. He has much better control at the line with his body so he's not having to feel like he's rushing or has to turn the ball as hard or fast with his hand. I also cut his approach down about 8-10 inches to keep him from getting "happy feet". This is just to get him back on track until he creates the feel of creating proper leverage and then he can return to his normal steps again. Not sure if any of this applies, just thought I'd throw it out there for you until you see Ron(C)...good luck bud.
--------------------
Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Pro Shop Staff
Vise Grip Staff
Post by: Jeffrevs on April 13, 2004, 07:34:10 AM
sit tight, let me see if I can 'wake him up' !!
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JEFF
Better....much better!
Post by: Strider on April 13, 2004, 03:43:03 PM
I was working on timing last night. I did delay letting the ball drop in my swing. The first step felt a little odd, but felt good at the line. More leverage as well. It worked for a while, but I got out of sync again. I have to fight fast feet often. I have moved forward up to 2 feet on the approach on some days. I didn't try last night; maybe I should have. I can't tell you how many times I've left the 1-2-4 the last few weeks. I'll throw a few good shots, then WHIFF! Maybe that at least confirms what I have to work on.
--------------------
Penn State Proud
That's "Mr. Toe" to you.
Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive (http://"http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm")
Post by: Jeffrevs on April 15, 2004, 07:35:44 AM
I too was way confused,....king of the mill explained it to me, and I have a pin under (to the right) and I don't even come close.....if you've never thrown the morpheous core, it's tough to understand because it IS so different,...but cool
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JEFF
Better....much better!
Post by: omegabowler on April 15, 2004, 08:28:56 AM
are you saying that pin over on all Morphoues cores flair over the fingers? or just the phenom.
What is the pin to pap? MB to PAP? I have an Unleashed drilled pin 3" above midline 4" from pap and MB 4.5" from pap.
this is my highest tracking ball. as side note. the track location is very different on all three of my Morphous balls.
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"deserves got nothing to do with it."
-- William Munny
Post by: BackToBasics on April 15, 2004, 10:01:54 AM
The pin up on the Phenom will not track over the fingers. I had one with the pin above the middle finger but it was still one of my lowest tracking balls.
Post by: LuckyLefty on April 15, 2004, 10:21:55 AM
I'm curious that no one has asked about your axis rotation. I believe that is so important in relation to how much one can kick out a mb/core and still get the desired reaction.
My 2 cents.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS are you failing to get recovery from inside? are you an up the backer, these are the important questions to be asked.
Post by: Jeffrevs on April 15, 2004, 10:30:17 AM
quote:
Just had some great luck with a regional player shooting his first 300 in a couple of years and also an 800 on a condition he just couldn't solve with an Animal.
then what WAS it solved with ?
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JEFF
Better....much better!
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on April 15, 2004, 10:31:31 AM
Someone should start a new thread on this, because there is alot of people out there that I am sure have the same concerns about placing the pin below on the Morpheous Core equipment. I think that is totally understandable because how long they were told that it was a no no to do so.
Omegabowler,
I do not believe that bowldoc was saying you would flare over the holes if you placed the pin high. I think he was saying that if you place the pin below the finger line you will more than likely be safe in doing so. I track extremely high, TOO HIGH actually, and have never been able to get below my finger line without clipping the middle finger. On Morpheous Core balls I have been able to be far less concerned with lower pin placements.
The way I got this brave was from speaking with Del and Mo at a clinic I attended in October. They both agreed that the cores (Mo cores as well) would lower the track, for some bowlers up to 2.5 inches. Also mentioned (there was a lot spoken of, but I am only touching on a couple), was that keeping the pin below the finger line(OR closer to the midline) was taking better advantage of what this core can give the bowler.
I believed them, but I was extremely tentative in doing so. When I got back to my shop I drilled up my Unleashed almost immediately and kept the pin low. I did not even come close to hitting the middle finger. Since that point I have drilled all of my Morpheous equipment with the pin low---depending on what kind of reaction I wanted to get out of the ball.
The point----------I never drilled something for myself with the pin low because it was "against the rules". Del and Track has changed the rules, and it is a good thing.
-EX-
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Owner/Operator
C-G Pro Shop
Edited on 4/15/2004 10:26 AM
Post by: Strider on April 15, 2004, 12:23:32 PM
Axis rotation is in my profile. I come up the back or around the ball as needed. Not that I'm competent or anything. I prefer to come around an "average" amount so I have some leeway for adjustment. I am looking for more recovery from inside. Between Excaliber, Tenpinspro, and KOTM, I think I'm ready to drill.
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Penn State Proud
That's "Mr. Toe" to you.
Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive (http://"http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm")
Post by: Strider on April 16, 2004, 06:41:58 PM
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Penn State Proud
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Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on April 17, 2004, 01:51:53 AM
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Owner/Operator
C-G Pro Shop
Post by: Strider on April 17, 2004, 02:27:28 AM
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Penn State Proud
Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive (http://"http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm")
Edited on 4/17/2004 2:20 AM
Post by: tenpinspro on April 17, 2004, 05:47:05 AM
Sounds good, remember the Animal does want to go a little long with the out of box finish. You might have to take it down some to match your condition, just a reminder. Good luck and keep us posted...thanks.
--------------------
Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Pro Shop Staff
Vise Grip Staff
Post by: Strider on April 19, 2004, 01:05:17 AM
Took it to the no-tap tonight. They put out a heavier modified sport shot to keep the color pin payouts low. I did shoot 300 the second game, but nothing to speak of the other two. I had a good look, but the ball will need less polish/more surface before I consider it a med/heavy oil ball. My Thing (see profile for drilling and surface) gave me similar length and a sharper backend. I might have scored better with the Thing, but I went to experiment with the Animal.
What grit is the Animal sanded to, and what type/grit of polish is used? Just removing the polish with a gray pad (1000 grit) might be all I need. I've tried this with other shiny balls and never noticed much difference after. Maybe I need more pressure on the spinner?
--------------------
Penn State Proud
Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive (http://"http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm")
Edited on 4/19/2004 2:34 PM
Post by: tenpinspro on April 19, 2004, 07:14:24 AM
I've personally tried 1000 and that wasn't enough for the heavier oil shots. I ended up going to about 600(burgundy pad) and that gave me a real nice reaction. It doesn't just pull up and quit like most might think. It still gets down the lane pretty well and reads the mids nicely for a hard strong arc on the backend. Not sure on how much backend you'll get out of yours due to the negative static weights that you ended up with. You might end up with just a little more of a hook set reaction then others who have some positive left. Maybe going in between to 800 might fit your Animal a little better. Hope this helps...
--------------------
Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Pro Shop Staff
Vise Grip Staff
Post by: Jeffrevs on April 19, 2004, 08:05:47 AM
KOTM gave me my ball at about 1200 smooth....he didn't even let me throw it in box. Med-heavy is really the heaviest I see now....but I can see this at 800 smooth too for heavier stuff NO PROBLEM....
Hit it ....see what happens!
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JEFF
Better....much better!
Post by: Strider on April 19, 2004, 02:47:07 PM
Isn't the Burgandy pad around 320 grit? Green = 600, Blue = 800, gray = 1000... Or are you talking about a Haus machine?
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Penn State Proud
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Post by: LuckyLefty on April 19, 2004, 03:11:15 PM
What I meant to say was my friend was struggling with everything on this shot particularly the 3rd game. He even had an Animal that he struggled with. He asked if I saw anything.
I said I did! I asked him if we could drill an ANimal differently, ordered with the specs I wanted for his problem. He said I've got it.
Voila, 760(first week), 805,300 second week. This was his second Animal, first I layed out. He seems to be pleased!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS I even like the Phenom Unleashed better for his problem but oh well!
Post by: tenpinspro on April 19, 2004, 06:08:52 PM
Sorry for the confusion, I meant the Haus pads. Thanks..