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Author Topic: Delta ball reaction  (Read 960 times)

cd

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Delta ball reaction
« on: January 26, 2006, 12:57:11 PM »
I recently had a Rule Delta 1 drilled up with the following layout.

Pin to PAP = 3 1/2" (above ring finger)
MB to PAP = 5" (right of thumb)

My PAP is 4 3/8" over and 1 1/2" up (speed dominant).  I believe with this layout the pin winds up being above my fingers because my PAP is so high.

Compared to my Arsenal Reactive, I am not seeing as much difference in backend reaction as I was hoping for.  The Delta has a little more recovery off of dry, but when playing a down and in line they react almost exactly the same.  What should I expect here as far as ball reaction?

I am mostly a down and in type player, who is learning to swing the ball out more as I go.  It seems I get a better reaction when I swing it out into the dry.  Is this expected?  I get this same kind of reaction from any ball, such as the Xception, except it goes a little longer beforehand.

I guess I have some general confusion about what to expect from my arsenal and how to effectively use everything in it.  My track is not super low, but it is around an inch below the thumbhole and 2" from the fingers, or so.  Should I be considering different layouts?  Please help me sort some of this out.

Thanks
cd
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C-G ProShop-Carl

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Re: Delta ball reaction
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2006, 10:35:17 PM »
cd,

I think the reason you are seeing them react similiar is because of 2 very important factors:

1- surface prep. Both are 900 grit OOB. You should try changing the surface on the Arsenal.

2- MB placement. It is too far from your PAP. If it were an inch closer you would see the ball start its roll much sooner.


-Carl
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Youngstown Ohio

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Carl Hurd

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chitown

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Re: Delta ball reaction
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2006, 12:18:52 AM »
Ex is right on about what he said.  Also from what I have seen you better make sure there is enough oil that your bowling on.  The more oil the more the Delta WILL MOVE.

I didn't match up well at all with the Delta but it does hook a ton.  I also have the arsenal reactive.  The AR will also move a ton but will hook earlier from what I have seen.  I hope this helps bud.
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chitown

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Re: Delta ball reaction
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2006, 12:42:44 AM »
quote:
quote:
Also from what I have seen you better make sure there is enough oil that your bowling on.  The more oil the more the Delta WILL MOVE.


Up to a certain point .
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I know it wont handle what the animal or gp2 will but it can handle a good amount of oil.  This ball in it's box surface will burn up fast if there isn't enough oil.
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cd

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Re: Delta ball reaction
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2006, 10:55:28 AM »
Thanks for the replies.

Ex,

  I read on the track web site that the AR's OOB finish was 1200.  If the MB were closer and started into a roll sooner, wouldn't that mean less backend?  I wanted this ball to store enough for the backends, but I haven't seen a huge move on the backend.  Am I expecting too much?

  I am kind of confused on which way to go.  I have always been slightly speed dominant, so it would seem my drillings should be ones that rev up faster.  However, I am trying to change to throw the ball slower and let the ball work more.  How much of a role do my layouts have in this?

http://www.trackbowling.com/gear/balls.cfm?bid=51

Thanks
cd
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clintdaley

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Re: Delta ball reaction
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2006, 11:10:40 AM »
Ex is right, the AR is 900 grit..unfortunately, the website is incorrect from what I understand.

I will back Ex's thinking here...if it is slightly too much, then you could always touch up the surface at that point.

Clint
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cd

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Re: Delta ball reaction
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2006, 11:29:33 AM »
According to the Track drillings chart, for a 3 1/2" pin to PAP distance, they recommend MB placement 3 for higher ball speeds.  This would be 4 3/4" for the MB to PAP distance.  Why is this?

I do not understand some of the classifications of ball reaction on the chart.  What is "Forward Roll" and "Hook and Set"?  Why would hook and set be best for a higher ball speed?

Ex, just to be clear, are you saying I should have a layout more like a forward roll layout?  3 1/2" (pin to PAP) x 4" (MB to PAP)

Thanks
cd
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LuckyLefty

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Re: Delta ball reaction
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2006, 11:44:32 AM »
That was very well said!!!

Regards,

Luckylefty
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clintdaley

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Re: Delta ball reaction
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2006, 11:48:01 AM »
cd,

What you really have to understand is this as well. Ex, myself, and others here are giving our opinions on what we have seen and tested....it is much easier when I have the person in front of me and being able to see their equipment and how they bowl to better match them up with something. You may be right, the closer mass bias to PAP may be better for you to get the ball rolling quicker....however, the ball is very strong (Ask Bar) with its factory surface, and making it stronger by placing the mass bias closer to your PAP may make the ball burn for you....On here I think and have to write down what I am going to do before I suggest something normally...however, come and see me and let me watch, and I can tell you in a heartbeat from watching you bowl and seeing the rest of your equipment what you are missing/need. The person doing your drilling...if he/she is not well enough versed in this type of matter for layouts, then he/she should not be drilling your stuff.

By no means am I being angry or bashing, just trying to inform anyone that info given here is to the best of what we are given, and we are even wrong sometimes...

Anytime you need some help, let us know and one of us will try to get to you to do whatever we can!!!!!!
Clint
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Inside Hunt Club Lanes
Salem, Ohio 44460
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C-G ProShop-Carl

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Re: Delta ball reaction
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2006, 12:18:33 PM »
cd,

I know the drill charts. And to a degree the terms used are not real accurate. Meaning "forward roll". Placing the MB in a position closer to PAP it more simply stated will make the ball pick up its roll sooner.

I suggested the stronger MB placement because generally those that are more speed dominant will see the stronger move off of the breakpoint with the MB closer to PAP than what the ball chart lists. As Clint mentioned.....this is really from being out there and drilling for many different styles of bowler.

If you end up changing your style and throw the ball more slowly then the layout will be much better off for you....but currently....a stronger MB placement would have worked better in my opinion.

The "hook set" is also a bad choice of termanology....for a high speed player unless they are on really fried out lanes placing the MB in that position is not going to make the ball hook/set for them.

I hope this helps bud.

If you have any further questions, let me know

-carl
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Youngstown Ohio

Track Intl.-Amateur/Pro Shop Staff
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Carl Hurd

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cd

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Re: Delta ball reaction
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2006, 03:07:43 PM »
Thanks for all of the help.  It really does help.  I know these types of things are very difficult without being able to watch the person bowl.  Sometime, if I am in Ohio I will look you guys up.

I have a lot of confidence in my ball driller. He is very well versed in layouts and I have had no real problems with my equipment.  As I add more balls to my arsenal I am just having a more difficult time in differentiating when to use what ball.

Under certain conditions, I can play the same line with my AR and Delta 1.  Under certain conditions, the same can be said for my AR and Xception.  I guess I was just wondering if this was a normal type of thing when you have an arsenal or if I should indeed see a wider separation.  My arsenal consists of 5 balls.  This is really the first time I have had an arsenal with more than 2 balls

Thanks
cd


Edited on 1/27/2006 3:55 PM
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cd

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Re: Delta ball reaction
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2006, 07:59:32 PM »
You are right.  I have noticed the AR is very versatile.  Right now, it is basically my benchmark ball, as it has the most controlled and smooth reaction of anything I have.

I will continue to use the Delta for a while, before I make a decision.  I will try dulling it down.  Should I go any farther than 800 grit?  At one point, I dulled my AR down to 800 grit, so maybe I should bring that back up to 1000-1200 grit?  Under my AR I have an Xception and a Desert Heat.

Do you always use your most aggressive ball on heavy oil, or are there times when you find a weaker ball gives you a better angle to the pocket?  For example, the AR is a little smoother, while the Delta has a little more backend.  The Xception gets through the heads cleaner and has a good backend.  I could easily find a line to the pocket with any of these 3 balls, on fresh oil.  Of course, I would have to stand on a different board, in some cases, and use a different target, but I could use any of them.  Are there times when you find you can score better with your weaker equipment, on heavier oil?  Just curious.

Thanks
cd
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charlest

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Re: Delta ball reaction
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2006, 05:30:19 AM »
cd,

In addition to all the really good advice the people here have offered, I think there is one other factor you should be aware of and you need to take into account. That is, house patterns, which are often "walls", can very frequently hide the difference between apparently different balls and their ball reactions. To balance off the possiblity of this happening, as seems to be the case with your delta & the AR, and between the AR & your Xception, you should try these balls on a couple of different houses or oil patterns before reaching any conclusions. This can be hard at times, but you're better off in the long run.

By the way, in addition to speed dominance requiring MB placement closer to VAL/PAP, your PAP borders on more spin versus roll (kind of semi-spinner vs semi-roller track; it's not a spinner, of course.); so that also calls for closer MB placement, in order to promote slightly earlier roll.


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