Author Topic: Thoughts on Rule and AU (Read 1990 times)

Aristotle · « **on:** September 16, 2004, 03:34:39 AM »

Well, I think that I have had enough time to bowl with both of these balls to give somewhat of a fair assessment of what straight off the drill press is like for me.

The Rule has been a very strange ball at this point. It seems that most of the condiditions that I throw it on are a bit too long and the ball ends up just skating most of the way down the lane. When I do hit a condition that's playable with the ball, look out because it hits like a truck. I have the ball layed out with the pin underneath and directly in between the finger holes and the MB is located about 1" to the left of my thumb. We decided that this would be the best layout for my relatively low track and it places the MB about 4.5 - 5" away from my PAP. We did have to take some weight out from the NAP to bring the ball under 1 oz of negative side. I'm contemplating changing the surface of this ball a bit since it has been going too long for me.

The AU has basically been my go to ball since I got it. I have this one drilled up with the MB about 1" to the right of my thumb and the pin sits just under my ring finger. This drilling for me tends to make the ball turn up pretty early, but there's not a big flip to it. I am most likely going to leave this ball alone since it has matched up so well with the houses that I have been bowling at.

I am a bit anxious to see what my opinion of both of these balls are after I change the surface of the Rule. I really get the feeling that if I can get that ball to turn up a little sooner that I am really going to enjoy it. Both of these balls, to me, seem to act like hook/set type of balls with the only real difference being the amount of hook that I get out of them and where they hook. The Rule wants to really get down the lane before a hard turn/set to where ever it is going, and the AU seems to turn sooner but not quite as hard.

I do have one question with all of this. The finish on the Rule is currently box, but I notice that it's not quite as forgiving as everyone says. This could be due to my really low track or to the fact that the oil is just too long for the ball in the area of the lane that I want to play, I'm not sure on the answer to that one. I'm thinking that I will get a earlier/bigger hook if I change the surface, but what should I take the ball down to?

BackToBasics · « **Reply #1 on:** September 16, 2004, 11:59:49 AM »

Without knowing the pin to PAP distances, it sounds like the drilling on the AU is stronger. The MB on the AU seems like it's about 3.5-4" from the PAP which means it's going to start up sooner. The pin (under ring vs between fingers) is stronger on the AU also.

Both of these factors will make the Rule want to delay it's transition longer than the AU, even though it has a stronger surface. Hit it with 800-1000 to see if that helps with the reaction. The Rule is an extremely strong ball downlane as long as the layout matches. You can get drastically different reactions with different MB placements. I just drilled up another 6 x 4 (pin x MB) with pin above fingers and this thing goes sideways downlane...but still very controllable.

tenpinspro · « **Reply #2 on:** September 16, 2004, 12:50:38 PM »

quote:
tenpinspro
Posted: 8/23/2004 2:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Aris,

As Ex and I recommended before, let's keep the mb strong on the Rule because you had asked for strong arc to snap. If you place the mb too weak, it may weaken the ball too much and make it resemble or overlap the Untamed which is not what we want. Ex and I were trying to help you keep a nice separation between the 2 balls.

Placing the mb in a strong position will NOT make this ball roll too early for you based on your lower track

Hey Aris, sorry to tell you but left of thumb is NOT considered strong. Unfortunately, placing it in track or left of thumb is considered to be a weak position for the mb. You would have seen a much stronger reaction if you followed the suggestions by Ex and myself.

Also as I mentioned back then, if you drill the Rule too weak, it might over lap the Untamed which seems to be somewhat of what you're describing now. You can try and take the Rule down to about 800 like Chapman suggested but it'll just roll a little earlier which still will not offer the backend strength that this ball is capable of.

No disrespect but I also disagree with your ball driller on the choice of layout because the weak positioning of the mb(natural length) and your lower track(more natural length) is giving you exactly what you're supposed to get. Try the surface adjustment but if you still don't like it, I'd plug it and drill it for a stronger reaction if that's what you really want.
--------------------
Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl. - Amateur/Pro Shop Staff
Vise Inserts Staff

Aristotle · « **Reply #3 on:** September 16, 2004, 03:39:46 PM »

quote:
Hey Aris, sorry to tell you but left of thumb is NOT considered strong. Unfortunately, placing it in track or left of thumb is considered to be a weak position for the mb. You would have seen a much stronger reaction if you followed the suggestions by Ex and myself.

Even being where it is on the left of the thumb, the MB is nowhere near my track. Keep in mind that my track is very low. What we were looking for was getting the MB 5 - 6" from PAP and from our measurments, this was the only way to get it there. My track distance from my thumb is about 2 to 2.5" so even with the MB where it is, it's not even close to being in my track.

quote:
Also as I mentioned back then, if you drill the Rule too weak, it might over lap the Untamed which seems to be somewhat of what you're describing now. You can try and take the Rule down to about 800 like Chapman suggested but it'll just roll a little earlier which still will not offer the backend strength that this ball is capable of.

I'm not really suggesting that there is an overlap of the balls in this case. From what I see, the ball does hook more than my AU when it's able to get over. It's just a matter of the ball isn't able to get over on the conditions that I have been throwing it on.

quote:
No disrespect but I also disagree with your ball driller on the choice of layout because the weak positioning of the mb(natural length) and your lower track(more natural length) is giving you exactly what you're supposed to get. Try the surface adjustment but if you still don't like it, I'd plug it and drill it for a stronger reaction if that's what you really want.

The ball driller was actually following my instruction. He's pretty unfamiliar with Track equipment, as is everyone in my area. I seem to be one of the few people that actually throws Track stuff around here, and I don't really have a large selection of drillers to go to. I had to dump my last driller because of some personal differences that were going on between the two of us, so I'm kinda starting from scratch in finding a new driller. Personally, I think that I need to go to a Track staffer like yourself or Ex to really get stuff nailed down, but lately, I have wanted to make changes in span and pitches to try to cure some of my problems and issues. Of coruse, that means drive time, so going to someone local is a little easier.

At any rate, I may be making some adjustments in the ball, or I may just purchase another one all together and use this one for different situations. I'm not really sure at this point. I may need to wait until I'm done with my chemotherapy to find out what I am going to ultimately need since one of the side effects is losing feeling in my fingertips.

So after all of my reasoning and a little more data about my track, am I still off in my thinking for the layout? Additionally, what would you suggest for changing surface of the ball? Do I get one of the Track polishes to finish it off, or just look at using scotch brite to take the surface down a bit? I most likely WILL be changing the surface to get a little improvement in the starting distance, I just need to figure out what to use.

Hopefully, Rick, you're not taking any of this with any disrespect. I have always valued the opinions of you, Ex, and every other member of this board.

tenpinspro · « **Reply #4 on:** September 16, 2004, 06:31:09 PM »

Hey Aris,

No offense taken. Just trying to help you understand what's going on. If you look at a drill sheet that comes with the ball, or hit the Track website for one, you'll see that mb placement 1 (near track side of thumb) clearly states that it delays roll. Just try to remember that this is a controlling weight in the ball and when we place that weight too far from where gravity wants to pull it, it will delay the reaction.

quote:
I'm not really suggesting that there is an overlap of the balls in this case. From what I see, the ball does hook more than my AU when it's able to get over. It's just a matter of the ball isn't able to get over on the conditions that I have been throwing it on.

haha...well, isn't this a description of "overlap"? They're both doing the same thing on a condition. My point is that if you drilled it stronger, it may "naturally" react stronger therefore reacting sooner thus giving you that difference we were looking for.

I understand your problems with finding a good ball driller but the big picture in this is not just the Morpheus cores, it's with laying out any strong mass bias ball. Go ahead and try the scotchbrite pad and that should help it "pull up sooner". But that was the original goal of placing the mb in a position that would've helped you do that instead of having to maintain a surface condition to achieve the same thing. Feel free to pm me if you have any questions, gotta go to work now.

PS. Hope your feeling okay with your med treatment.
--------------------
Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl. - Amateur/Pro Shop Staff
Vise Inserts Staff

Aristotle · « **Reply #5 on:** September 16, 2004, 07:38:45 PM »

Thanks for the clarification, Rick. One thing that I don't quite understand is why they give you distances of MB to PAP if they don't mean anything? Along with the pictoral positions of the MB they also list distances. The only way for us to get the reaction shape that I wanted was to get the MB 5 1/2" away from PAP with the pin being 4" from PAP. With my PAP being as close to the center of my grip as it is, this seemed to be the only way to get the reaction shape that I wanted. Did I misread the drill sheet, or are there instances, like mine, where the drill sheet doesn't quite apply?

quote:
haha...well, isn't this a description of "overlap"? They're both doing the same thing on a condition. My point is that if you drilled it stronger, it may "naturally" react stronger therefore reacting sooner thus giving you that difference we were looking for.

They're not really doing the same thing. Maybe I didn't explain the reaction that I am getting well enough. The AU is actually a much earlier rolling ball than the Rule turned out to be and to be with the drillings that I have. When the lanes dry out a bit, the Rule can take the place of the AU since I get more length out of it. I think that what it really comes down to is that I basically got the opposite of what I was looking for out of the balls. It's pretty unfortunate that I didn't understand what was going on, but I think that I can still place the Rule into my lineup just in front of my Threat since it goes longer than the AU but not quite as long as the Threat does. I guess when it comes to my arsenal, I tend to deal more in length than I do boards of coverage.

As far as my treatments are going, I've only had one so far. I go every 3 weeks, so I have another coming up next week. It is getting a bit weird, since I lost feeling in my fingertips and tip of my thumb. But this is the small price that I pay to stay alive I guess.

One of these days, I'm going to have to pay ya a visit so I can have someone that knows what they're doing drilling my stuff. It's next to impossible to find someone around here.

Edited on 9/16/2004 7:39 PM

icetink · « **Reply #6 on:** September 16, 2004, 08:35:14 PM »

When drilling balls, I try to keep the drillings the same or very similar. For example, if the AU and Rule are drilled exactly the same, the Rule would naturally go longer and have a greater hook potential because the Rule is designed to go longer and hook more (length-5.0 vs 4.0, hook potential: 40 vs 33). Drilling balls the same or very similar helps for me so that I get a better separation between my balls without having anything overlap. Another example could be: if I had a Phenom Unleashed that would go too long, I'd buy an Animal and drill it the same as the Phenom Unleashed because by keeping the same drilling, I'd assume the Animal would start up earlier because of its 2.5 length rating vs. the PU's 4.0 length rating.
--------------------
-Dino

C-G ProShop-Carl · « **Reply #7 on:** September 17, 2004, 12:10:50 AM »

Aris,

I think that the surface adjustment will help you get it into the roll that you are looking for. The Rule takes the versatility of these morpheous to another level. I have mine lightly shined with Magic Shine and it is skid flip, when it was dull it rolled up really quick.

Rick is correct about the MB left of the thumb, it delays roll----basically makes the layout label. Pin distance from PAP and MB distance from PAP is going to make a difference in the reaction of the ball. Rick and I have discussed this before----ideally having a ball when you look at it and the pin and MB are inline with eachother and the CG appears to be off to the left would be ideal for you. <<<<sorry, I am rambling.

The pin distance you chose is good, but going further from the PAP with the MB is where your current problem lies. Having the MB 5 1/2 inches from PAP is like having the pin 5 1/2 inches from PAP. I hope this makes sense*L*

Try taking the surface down to about 600 grit, I think that will do the job for you.

Hope everything continues to go well during your treatments bud, we are all pulling for ya.

-EX-
--------------------
C-G Pro Shop (owner/operator)
Youngstown Ohio

Track Intl.-Advisory Staff

Aristotle · « **Reply #8 on:** September 17, 2004, 04:12:28 AM »

quote:
Rick is correct about the MB left of the thumb, it delays roll----basically makes the layout label. Pin distance from PAP and MB distance from PAP is going to make a difference in the reaction of the ball. Rick and I have discussed this before----ideally having a ball when you look at it and the pin and MB are inline with eachother and the CG appears to be off to the left would be ideal for you.

Well this is just darn unfortunate. This Rule that I got would have set up perfectly that way since the CG was to the left of the MB and pin when lined up with the pin near the fingers and the MB where I USUALLY place it on these balls. To be honest, just about every Morpheus core ball that I have has the MB about 1" to the right side of the thumb. With the Rule, this would have placed the CG somewhere near the center of the three holes.

The drillings on the two balls that I got, I have to admit, turned out VERY strange. With the AU, the CG was sitting so far out of line that with the pin under the ring finger and the MB just a bit to the right of the thumb, I ended up with 4.5 oz of positive side weight, which we had to take 3.5 out for, obviously. With the Rule, the CG was so far the other way that we ended up with a little over 3 oz of negative side, so, again, we had to take weight out, but this time from the NAP. Because of my rather peculuar release, I am pretty accustomed to drillings being a little strange, but these two have to, by far, be the weirdest drillings yet.

I'll try tweaking the cover to 600 as suggested and see what I end up with. At this point, I'm strongly considering shining the hell out of it and using it as something of a drier condition ball. I think with the recovery that the ball is able to generate, with a little shine on it, it might perform quite well in that respect. After that, I'll just go get another one and drill it up the right way.

Hey Rick, wanna make a road trip to help a guy out? haha!

Ex: Thanks for the well wishes. Things will go quite well, I'm sure. It'll just take some time.

tenpinspro · « **Reply #9 on:** September 17, 2004, 05:47:58 AM »

Hey Aris,

"ROAD TRIP"....cool, wish I could. Actually, send me a pm where you are exactly and I'll find our closest staffer to you. I just wrote you an 18 page definition of mass bias and weight imbalances. Well, it just might seem like 18 pages..

but hopefully this will help explain in better detail.

In regards to suggested layouts by the numbers, it's pretty much for the masses but due to your lower track, that has to be taken in consideration and applied accordingly. Actually, knowing your track diameter would be helpful as well but based on your evaluation of your local drillers, I won't push my luck. I also have a good friend I drill for and he also has a very low track. I've also tried quite a few different layouts to try and get more out of a ball but had better success at slightly raising his track by coaching him and we've achieved better results that way (didn't we Minimum Bob?)

Now he's complaining cause his fingers burn because I got him to lift thru the ball better...haha.

Glad to hear the treatments are going well, hang in there. If we could make our biggest problem into not getting a certain reaction out of a bowling ball, then I'd say we're not doing too bad.
--------------------
Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl. - Amateur/Pro Shop Staff
Vise Inserts Staff

Edited on 9/17/2004 6:07 AM

Aristotle · « **Reply #10 on:** September 18, 2004, 10:10:42 AM »

quote:
"ROAD TRIP"....cool, wish I could. Actually, send me a pm where you are exactly and I'll find our closest staffer to you. I just wrote you an 18 page definition of mass bias and weight imbalances. Well, it just might seem like 18 pages.. but hopefully this will help explain in better detail.

Unless the Track website isn't up to date, the closest shop to me is in Ventura, which ends up being about 2.5 hours away. I'll still send you my city so you can take a look, but I don't think that we're going to come up with anything useful. As for the definition on weight imbalances and mass bias, quite a bit of that was review, but the stuff on MB was interesting. Thanks for that. I learned quite a bit when I was younger when I went to a PBC week long camp. We were given 2 very long equipment lectures by Ray Edwards. Unfortunately, at the time, mass bias wasn't really something that was explored or even used. In fact, 2 piece balls were just coming into their own with the "lightbulb" cores.

quote:
In regards to suggested layouts by the numbers, it's pretty much for the masses but due to your lower track, that has to be taken in consideration and applied accordingly. Actually, knowing your track diameter would be helpful as well but based on your evaluation of your local drillers, I won't push my luck. I also have a good friend I drill for and he also has a very low track. I've also tried quite a few different layouts to try and get more out of a ball but had better success at slightly raising his track by coaching him and we've achieved better results that way (didn't we Minimum Bob?) Now he's complaining cause his fingers burn because I got him to lift thru the ball better...haha.

I would love to get the track back that I had when I was a kid. Used to be right along the thumb and fingers, about 3/4" off the fingers and 1/2" off the thumb. One of these days maybe I'll figure out where it all went wrong. haha!

Author Topic: Thoughts on Rule and AU (Read 1990 times)

Aristotle

Thoughts on Rule and AU

BackToBasics

Re: Thoughts on Rule and AU

tenpinspro

Re: Thoughts on Rule and AU

Aristotle

Re: Thoughts on Rule and AU

tenpinspro

Re: Thoughts on Rule and AU

Aristotle

Re: Thoughts on Rule and AU

icetink

Re: Thoughts on Rule and AU

C-G ProShop-Carl

Re: Thoughts on Rule and AU

Aristotle

Re: Thoughts on Rule and AU

tenpinspro

Re: Thoughts on Rule and AU

Aristotle

Re: Thoughts on Rule and AU