Post by: Traumabill on November 12, 2003, 08:37:12 PM
I'm currently throwing a V2 Sanded which I happen to like. I throw
relatively fast (19+ mph) with very little hand (unfortunately, but working on it). I play between the 5 - 8 board standing on 19.
Curious to what I should be looking at in the Track line that is real similar to the V2 I currently have and really like . I'd like to evaluate both at their merits. (currently the V2 is drilled Label leverage w/ no hole). I'd like a tick more backend if possible... For house shots and 'heavier' oil...
I also had a chance to throw the Apex Obsession at Demo Days, which I liked...What is comparable to that given the same conditions? The Ebonite Rep stated I may want to consider a 'heavier' oil ball as the first one out given the house shot and my lack of hand....
Any thoughts or suggestions would help,
Thanks,
Bill
Post by: Next Level PS on November 13, 2003, 11:59:41 AM
you also can check out the Track Crunch.
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www.bowlritelanes.com
www.nextlevelproshop.com
also know as VortexII
Edited on 11/16/2003 0:32 AM
Post by: Nicanor on November 13, 2003, 01:08:10 PM
V/R,
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Edited on 11/13/2003 2:09 PM
Post by: Mr Track on November 13, 2003, 02:59:18 PM
Traumabill.....if your looking to replace your V2 sanded, then drill up a CRUNCH! that is the best replacement on the market, considering that the Crunch was specifically made to be mimic the V2 sanded, but better, since they added the rev sphere. The Crunch will give you more move on the backends than the V2, and a strong finish with lots of carry.
I had a V2 sanded, and it was a great ball, then once i switched to Track, I drilled the Crunch similar to the V2 and I honestly find that the Crunch takes the cake!
I threw the ebonite player and it wasnt all that great...
For your Apex Obsession, and lack of hand, you'll find amazing resaults with the Super Freak.....the Super Freak starts rolling right off your hand..
If you wanna know more details, then just msg me.
Thanks
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'wanna be' Track Staffer
but performs well enough to be one!
Post by: Nicanor on November 13, 2003, 04:49:08 PM
Thank you for your input. Don't agree with your opinion about the Player and I normally don't say anything good about Ebonite, but the Player is n outstanding medium oil ball that plays down and in and also a great swing ball. But thats my opnion. I never threw the Crunch so I can't compare but I have two Freak Outs and there is no way I can compare a polished particle Freak Out to a sanded V2 and why would I want to sand the Freak Out down, just get a sanded ball to start with that is not a pearl.
I see TWOHAND834 also compared the Crunch to the V2. I might have to try it myself since I like the V2 and th Player.
V/R,
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Edited on 11/13/2003 6:03 PM
Post by: Mr Track on November 14, 2003, 09:31:04 AM
about the player, i just didnt like it when i went to demo day. i found the the savage flip was a better swing ball for me.
about the freak out, i never said the sand this ball, i just said that the unleashed is like the freak out, but with more surface and backend. Also, i wasnt comparing the Freak Out to the V2.
"Sorry to say, but the phenom unleashed is NOTHING like the V2 sanded...the unleashed is truely unique....if you want to compare the Unleashed to something, it would have to be the Freak Out, but with a 1500 smooth surface."
if i were to switch out of track, i would go back to ebonite...they have good products.
try the crunch, you'll be amazed
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'wanna be' Track Staffer
but performs well enough to be one!
Post by: Nicanor on November 14, 2003, 10:55:36 AM
I throw almost all track myself now, slowly moving away from Lane 1. I actually got the Unleased to compare against the Raging Inferno. I have three Freaks, Super Freak, Mutant, two Freak outs, Voo Doo, two Easy Moneys and the old Assassin. But I use the Player as my favorite reactive dull/matte control ball and the Shooter for my medium/light ball. But I am also working with the Raging Inferno, Inferno and soon the Blazing Inferno to compare differences in manufactuers.
I read that you said the Unleashed is unique, but neither time did you mention how it is unique. I think with all the limitations that ABC buts on the ball, no one ball is unique anymore.
When I went to Ebonite/Hammer Demo days I also liked the savage Flip, but I liked the control and the carry of the Player better. It was just easy for me to compare the V2 and the Player because they use the SAME coverstock and the core in the V2 wasn't the strongest so it wasn't flippy in most bowlers hands.
If I continue with Track, I will probably try the Crunch. The one thing that concerns me about Track is that it is a Columbia coverstock and they don't hold up for anything. but on all my new equipment I did use Doc's Elixir and the bowling balls do seem to be holding up better.
But other then spin rate, there is no way I could compare the Freak Out and the Unleashed. It might be a good one two combination with the Unleashed for med/heavy oil and the Feak Out working on med/light oil, but everybody throws the ball differently so what might work for one person, might not work for another.
V/R,
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: fozzie1969 on November 14, 2003, 11:22:22 PM
quote:
If I continue with Track, I will probably try the Crunch. The one thing that concerns me about Track is that it is a Columbia coverstock and they don't hold up for anything. but on all my new equipment I did use Doc's Elixir and the bowling balls do seem to be holding up better.
I will have to disagree on this statement I have a bunch of Track balls and a few Columbia balls and they all have held up quite nicely.
Columbia
Pearl Beast 1000+ Games
Aftershock 800
Red Pulse 750
Track
Heat 1000
Contender 700
Pearl Stomp 500
Hex 200
All but the Heat and Beast I still use and they work just like the day I got them. I also have not treated them in any way outside of cleaning and polish.
My .02
Thanks
Post by: Mr Track on November 15, 2003, 02:27:31 AM
VooDoo
Player
Inferno
I only know ebonite/hammer and track covers and cores.....i PERSONALLY dont like the player, but that's only in my hands..in someone elses hands, it would most likely be a keeper.
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'wanna be' Track Staffer
but performs well enough to be one!
Post by: Nicanor on November 15, 2003, 09:45:16 AM
I did only mention reactive bowling balls, but I probably have about 60 reactives and 40 particle and 10 urethane and 6 plastic. I must have had the V2 solid to compare it (and I do) but I haven't thrown the Unleashed yet, so I can't compare it to anything.
But the question was, what was/is unique about the Phenom Unleashed? I probably won't throw it till Monday, Sunday if I'm lucky, but I'm going to compare it to the Raging Inferno.
I don't think anything is unique in bowling balls anymore. Many differences is core/coverstock combinations but the friction rate can only be so much and the hardness can only be so much and the RG also have minimum and maximum differences so I can't see how the Unleashed can be unique. Please explain.
V/R,
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: Nicanor on November 15, 2003, 10:49:26 AM
V/R,
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: JS on November 15, 2003, 11:00:33 AM
If you like your V2 Sanded but would like something a little more aggressive as your first ball out, have you considered the V2 Strong. Did you get a chance to throw that ball during the demo day? Take care....JS
Post by: Nicanor on November 15, 2003, 06:23:28 PM
They didn't have them at demo days but I seen several bowlers throw that ball and I was very impressed. I might try one if the Unleashed doesn't work out.
V/R,
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: Mr Track on November 17, 2003, 08:46:28 AM
thats alot of balls man...i know this one guy who buys like every ball...he was a good bowler, until he started to devote his money into bowling balls.
he has just as much balls as you, but his avg. is only 180.
just throw the unleashed and find out for yourself....btw, show me a core that is almost similar to the morpheus core, then i'll retract my statement about this ball being unique.
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'wanna be' Track Staffer
but performs well enough to be one!
Post by: BackToBasics on November 17, 2003, 09:10:31 AM
I'm not Mr. Track but please let me offer some things that make the Unleashed unique. They strengthened the MB. If you look at the specs, it has a lower Determinator Spin time than the Phenom and possibility the lowest on the market. They also lowered the RG differential into the .047 range. This creates a ball that will flare less through the heads and mids, which creates length but with the stronger MB, a MUCH stronger change of direction. The Unleashed (and Phenom) are oil balls that will open up the lane downlane and can turn the corner which is a rarity.
Post by: Nicanor on November 17, 2003, 05:38:09 PM
I believe that the Morpheus core is a great core. One of the reasons I mentioned earlier was how much I like Track cores but did not care for the Columbia coverstock.
You say unique and morpheus in the Phenom unleashed but the Morpheus core is in several more bowling balls though I know they have different layouts of the flip block etc of the Morpheus core. I think at least the Freak Out has a quicker spin rate then the Unleashed but thats only if you bu into spin rate. I went to one of the Warren/Pinel seminars and I don't totally buy into spin rates etc. if spin rates were so important, then symmetrical bowling balls would be a thing of the past, yet symmetrical balls seem to be the bowling balls most praised. The thing about spin rate is that is suppose to help make the ball very predictable and the symmetrical bowling balls are lucky to ever find a spin rate.
A .047 differential is just above average, some are pretty high like in the 80's and then they are low as 17 (probably lower). So what. There is just a very small amount of measurable difference between max rg and min rg and the friction rate was lowered a couple of years ago so it should get through the heads better then the hook monsters of old. What does a core do, what measurements differences do you get from the different cores.
I did throw the Unleashed today and I can honestly say the lane conditions made it unfair to judge this ball. It was medium short oil Christmas tree pattern. I threw the ball box condition and the ball hooked in the heads rolled out and when it did hit the pocket, it left a weak 10. Not the balls fault. I think with a little more oil and a longer oil pattern this ball will be great.
The Unleashed reminds me of the Enforcer, it has the same RG, recommended lane conditions etc. But the Enforcer was a Morpheus core.
Again I say, throw the ball, tell me how it reads the lanes and carries the pocket that makes it unique. Don't just tell me that it has a Morpheus core and that makes it unique. Bowling balls read the lanes early, late, the back end, the mid lane, the heads, not at all, they carry everything, keep ins low, send them high, has no messengers, has messengers flying everywhere, rolls out, skids past the break point, etc. Ok the ball is unique because it has a Morpheus core (like the Freak, Freak Out, Mutant, Super Freak, Phenom and now the Phenom Unleashed). Its not unique.
Please keep the discussion going. I am not slamming Track equipment, I think they have outstanding cores.
V/R,
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: BackToBasics on November 18, 2003, 09:59:43 AM
Actually, the Phenom Unleashed has a faste spin rate than the Freak Out. Spin rates are somewhat important when comparing asymmetrical balls. Saying a Freak Out has a faster spin rate than a Triple Threat is mute because they are different types of balls. At that point, it's just symmetrical vs asymmetrical. The most important thing about spin rate is how quickly the ball reacts to changes in friction and also how quickly it will change direction. This is because of how quicly the ball will seek it's preferred spin axis. In theory, all things being equal, a ball with a faster spin rate will change direction more drastically.
Yes, .047 diff is above average but it's not as high as other high flaring balls like the Mutant, V2 Strong, etc. High flare can generate hook but it also generate early burn and not much backend. Lowering the diff prevents the ball from burning too quickly. If you notice, the Freak Out also has a similar diff which is why it was also very clean and strong downlane.
Thus you have a ball that has larger but less particles, an extremely fast spin rate and a medium differential. This creates a oil ball that will get through the heads, still read because of the surface but be angular in the back. This combination is hard to get because if you increase the particle, you get early hook. If you increase the diff, you get early hook. Niether of which allow you to open up the lane downlane.
The Phenom and Phenom Unleashed are the first two oil balls that I've had that reacted down lane like a polished ball. The Freak, Super Freak and Mutant didn't match up to me at all and I tried various drillings and surfaces. They just had too much diff and too high a particle load to use on the oil volumes I encounter. Thus they hooked early, didn't recover, didn't hit and were condition specific. This is not the case with the Phenom and Unleashed which is why I think they are unique. A true test would be to drill an Super Freak and Phenom/Unleashed and throw them to compare.
Edited on 11/18/2003 11:03 AM
Post by: Mr Track on November 18, 2003, 10:25:25 AM
what more can we say after we told you that it gives us/me great lentgh, a turn like no other, and the hardest hit to create messengers, solid flush, trips or anytype of pin reaction WITH a dull surface.
i dont know if you play up the boards or anything, but i havent trying shooting this ball anywhere near the second arrow.
with this ball, i usually stand on 30/35 depending on the condition, and cross the middle/3rd arrow, breaking near 8 i believe....so pretty much, i get alot of hand on the ball, shooting it with med. speed(16-17)...this ball crosses the entire lane for me on med-med/carrydown, mid-light if polished(havent tried it yet)....i have not played on heavy conditions with this ball yet.
I think traumabill got all the information he needs, nicanor, all you have to do is experience it for your self. If you dont like it, then maybe it's not for you...but i like it, and i believe that it's a unique ball.
maybe track doesnt have the best cover's on the market...OH WELL!
it takes the cake for me!
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'wanna be' Track Staffer
but performs well enough to be one!
Post by: Nicanor on November 18, 2003, 12:49:22 PM
the only reason I like to continue the discussing is because it is one. Not necessarily do we agree, but it is a good discussing with difference of opinions that done without a lot of sarcasm. just good info that I think Trackees might like to know. I don't know if its for me, I'm heading out right now to test the ball on a little more/longer oil. ut its all good. I do like the feedback. i don't have to agree with all of it, but I still like the input everyone has made to this topic.
V/R,
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)