Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on April 03, 2005, 03:45:35 PM
Some ball drillers (particularly those that have not taken the time to learn about asymmetrical equipment) have drilled balls label leverage without even taking the MB into consideration during the layout. I am going to use an example here: A local ball driller drilled up a Rule for a highschool student with the pin at 1:30, cg in palm and MB at about 9 o'clock in relation to the grip center (bowler is right handed). Needless to say this ball did absolutely nothing.
If you are a bowler that does not know the whats and what nots about drilling or what a certain layout is going to do on a bowling ball and trusts the ball driller to pick a good layout for you and it is drilled like this, would this keep you from buying another asymmetrical ball? It could have been drilled for you, and maybe your instant thoughts is that maybe asymmetrical equipment does not match up to your game.
I mention this because I was able to look at that ball and determine exactly why the driller did that. He drilled it like that to keep the CG in palm and avoid having to put a weighthole in it.
SO, back to the initial question, do you think some ball drillers that are not up to date on the newer equipment on the market could be ruining the thoughts on asymmetrical equipment by bowlers?
-EX-
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C-G Pro Shop (owner/operator)
Youngstown Ohio
Track Intl.-Amateur/Pro Shop Staff
Post by: Next Level PS on April 03, 2005, 11:55:14 PM
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www.bowlritelanes.com
www.nextlevelproshop.com
Post by: J_Mac on April 04, 2005, 12:00:09 AM
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American beer is like making love in a canoe. It's f*cking close to water. - Monty Python
Why is American beer served cold? So you can tell it from urine. - David Moulton
Post by: bowlitup on April 04, 2005, 12:04:03 AM
Thanks for posting.
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Ben W.
Post by: thfonz98 on April 04, 2005, 12:08:48 AM
Yeah but is the person being turned off even going to know what asymmetrical equipment means?
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YOU HAVE NO MARBLES!! (http://"http://161.58.5.90/mjrleag2/nomarble.wav") - major league 2
F.O.S. Member....Proof (http://"http://www.bowlingballexchange.com/upload_files/MVC-011F.JPG")
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on April 04, 2005, 12:10:33 AM
The person may not know and I feel it is up to the driller to explain that to them.
-EX-
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C-G Pro Shop (owner/operator)
Youngstown Ohio
Track Intl.-Amateur/Pro Shop Staff
Post by: Rev_O on April 04, 2005, 01:36:20 AM
my answer: YES!!
we have to many guys in this area that just put 3 holes in it and sent it on it's way. Every time I see this, it makes me sick!
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Rev-O
Track International Amateur Staff Member
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/nagyiii/detail?.dir=5406&.dnm=9e95.jpg&.src=ph
R.I.P Dick Weber 1929-2005
Brunswick might have a nation, but TRACK rules the Universe!!!
Post by: Jeffrevs on April 04, 2005, 07:23:59 AM
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JEFF
"Oh...that's puce"
Sully; Monsters, Inc.
Post by: charlest on April 04, 2005, 07:41:49 AM
How could it not?
As an example, a friend tried his teammate's Ravage, loved it and had our local pro shop order on for him. The owner/driller of the pro shop, as he was taking my friend, Ted's, order, asked Ted if he wanted the ball to go long. If so, then he'd order a ball with more top weight. That was his sole criteria for drilling the ball: where to put the CG and how much final side and top weight it woudl have. Without cringing too much, I told Ted where to have the driller put the pin and the MB (close to where his teammate had it) so at least Ted would have a somewhat similar reaction to the one he liked.
This driller apparently has no idea about pin position, no less MB's on asymmetric ball. I also heard him ask some other customer if a ball was asymmetric or not. Needless to say this guy, no matter how convenient, will never drill on of mine.
Post by: MC on April 04, 2005, 09:44:01 AM
This could have happened to me. I bought a Rule and while it was being shipped I asked my local Pro about drilling it, being it was asymmetrical. He said, "you have to be careful when you drill all balls, this one should not be any different." Not the answer I was wanting to here, since you don't see many Track balls in this area. So, I then found this site, talked to Rick, and he got me in touch w/ Mike Mineman, Track Staffer, who is about 1 hour away. He drill my Rule, took one (literally) one look at my Visionary Charcoal Executioner and said "I bet is this ball is not legal." Ended up having too much finger weight. Since I have had my Charcoal redrilled to match the pitches and sizes of the Rule. When I am ready to buy my next ball, Track or not, (probably Track) I will either go back to Mike or discuss how to drill it w/Rick and Ex and "TELL" my local guy how to drill it.
See Ya,
MC
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Marsupials, scare me.....cause they're fast!!!!!
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on April 04, 2005, 12:43:20 PM
Odds are that the pro shop has motives for only selling particular equipment. Saying Track is an off brand and then carrying MoRich tells you one thing: He is getting deals on stuff manufactured by BrunsRich. Various pro shop owners will know what I am speaking about.
There is not a pro shop in my area that does that, to my knowledge. There are pro shops that raise the prices of HOT selling bowling balls, which I also disagree with.
Back to the original topic of this thread. Asymmetrical equipment is an awesome tool for the bowler and for pro shops alike. It is just too bad that not enough ball drillers know how to use them in this manner.
There are serveral reasons I went into the pro shop business. One major reason in doing this is that I noticed so many bowlers using equipment drilled label leverage. They could have had 3-4 bowling balls and they were all drilled the same. It just appeared to me that the pro shops were not taking the time to drill a ball in a different manner for the bowlers.
-EX-
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C-G Pro Shop (owner/operator)
Youngstown Ohio
Track Intl.-Amateur/Pro Shop Staff
Post by: Brickguy221 on April 04, 2005, 01:12:10 PM
quote:
SO, back to the initial question, do you think some ball drillers that are not up to date on the newer equipment on the market could be ruining the thoughts on asymmetrical equipment by bowlers?
Rev, there are some of those drillers in my area. We call them "Wanna Be Drillers."
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Owner of a 129 game bowled with a Brunswick Impulse Zone.
Post by: Brickguy221 on April 04, 2005, 01:28:08 PM
quote:
Jeremy,
Odds are that the pro shop has motives for only selling particular equipment. Saying Track is an off brand and then carrying MoRich tells you one thing: He is getting deals on stuff manufactured by BrunsRich. Various pro shop owners will know what I am speaking about.
EXCALIBER, you are "right on" with that. Same thing happens where I live also. One shop pushes Ebonite. He will order what a person wants, but will first try to convince that person that the Ebonite ball will out perform the ball that the Customer wants to order.
Another shop pushes Columbia and gives customers the same sales pitch.
And....The one I go is almost entirely a Storm shop, and of coarse recommends Storm, but will willingly without any problem order anything a customer wants The operater used to bowl on the tour and was sponsered by Storm and the spouse used to work for Storm. They carry a couple of Brunswicks and a V2 Sanded Ebonite and the rest Storm.....That is until the last 3-4 weeks. All at once they are selling Lane Master balls faster than they can get them in. Especially the New Standard and the Yeah Baby. To top it off, bowlers around here have no clue to what these balls are, but they are buying them like crazy.
So, it has to be what you said and that is....They are getting deals and are pushing that line regardless of whether it is best for the bowler or not.
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Owner of a 129 game bowled with a Brunswick Impulse Zone.
Post by: Steven on April 04, 2005, 01:48:15 PM
As an aside, the problem I have with asymmetric balls is that even if the driller knows what he is doing, the end reaction can sometimes be a crap shoot.
I have a Storm El Nino Gold that's probably one of my favorite all time balls. I just love the reaction. Well, when it was time to replace it, the closest Storm ball available was the X-Factor Deuce. While not identical, the cover/core specs are 95% the same. So I ordered a Deuce with the exact specs (pin to MB length, top weight, etc.), and had it drilled identically. While the reaction is OK, it's just not close to being the same as the Gold. I attribute this to the touchy nature of asymmetric cores.
So over the past year, I've focused exclusively on symmetric equipment. I find reactions to be much more reliable (i.e. what you anticipate before drilling is actually what you get), and frankly much more controllable over a wider range of conditions.
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"You want the truth? -- You can't handle the truth! "
Post by: Myser on April 04, 2005, 02:15:50 PM
I had exaclty what you descirbed happen to my Rule, and because of it im thinking about giving up on anything asymmetrical or anything track. But my Driller Really messed it up so im willing to believe that it was driller error rather than asymmetrical stuff just not matching up to my game.
-0-0-
-----P (pin)
--------.--0 (cg and weight hole 1" by 4.5")
-----
--0-
-
-
----------MB
this ball rolles out at the arrows ( goes in a strait line after the first 20 feet.
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on April 04, 2005, 02:18:04 PM
Your problem with the El Nino Gold was probably attributed to the fact that when Storm was making the MC2 (mb) cores they were known to be mismarked as far as 4-5 inches. The Duece has the RAD which is spun for accuracy before it leaves the factory.
-EX-
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C-G Pro Shop (owner/operator)
Youngstown Ohio
Track Intl.-Amateur/Pro Shop Staff
Post by: Steven on April 04, 2005, 03:23:26 PM
Regardless of that particular situation, my feeling is that while asymmetics give the driller more options for reactions, they also provide more opportunities for things to go wrong. I just don't see the uncertainties justifying potential benefits. I can get just about any reaction I want from a well designed symmetric. However, this could be different for others.
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"You want the truth? -- You can't handle the truth! "
Post by: tenpinspro on April 04, 2005, 05:15:10 PM
Unfortunately this does happen, probably more often than not but that's what hopefully this site and others can help solve with education. I realize some bowlers may not have the most educated drillers but it's really not that difficult once it is explained.
My personal recommendation to those who do not have drillers that listen to your thoughts or comments, it's definitely time to seek another driller. Simple question, how many times would you return to a restaurant who keeps making your steaks well done when you keep asking for it medium rare?
Real simple guys, we know a weightblock will always fight towards it's preferred spin axis (psa) or resting point due to gravity, so either we "assist" or "delay" that motion. The mass bias (>.008) on a ball has the same effect to some degree, either we assist the ball motion or we delay it by placing it accordingly. Please print this to help your discussions with your ball drillers that do not understand that principle, it may help.
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Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl. - Amateur/Pro Shop Staff
Vise Inserts Staff
Post by: icetink on April 04, 2005, 06:23:54 PM
I have a used Rule which I plugged and drilled. My first Rule was drilled 4 1/2 x 3 1/2 with the pin under the fingers, MB around 3" right of thumb. It got decent length and it provided a hook-set/forward roll reaction.
The used Rule which I plugged and drilled was drilled approximately 5 3/8 x 5 with the pin above the bridge, MB around 1" right of thumb. It's highly polished with Magic Shine. The reaction I get from this is about 3-5' more length but a similar hook-set/forward roll reaction. Shouldn't this be a good 5'+ in length with a more continuous backend?
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Dino
Evolutionary. Revolutionary.
Track
Post by: tenpinspro on April 05, 2005, 03:44:12 AM
By placing your pin distance to match your pap, it produces very good length and stability because it's on your centerline. You are also correct in stating that plugging can change the mb location so it's little hard to say if that 5 is a true measurement or not.
I'd keep the pin the same but move the mb in between the thumb and val (strong) and then see what you get. I've plugged a few of my stronger mb balls without a problem but I've also never pushed it that close to thumb. I usually like to utilize a ball's natural strength so mb's are usually in strong to early roll position for me.
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Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl. - Amateur/Pro Shop Staff
Vise Inserts Staff
Post by: laufaye on April 05, 2005, 02:21:32 PM
the answer is YES, in my area, there is a so called driller guy love to sell STORM master line to "Conventional Grips" bowlers. I have seen at least 15 X-factor conventional come to the shop and ask me why the ball not striking. I know its not the ball its the bowler, but this case shows that driller not only wasting the customer's money but also killed a nice equipment.
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Laufaye