Hi DW,

You may get some conflicting replies but here's my input.  My Crunch and Havoc are in two different categories.  My Crunch drilled 5x3(pin above bridge) went real long on a med condition with a strong finish on dry backends, didn't like carrydown.

So far, my Havoc drilled 4x2.75 mb (pin under ring) mb past val, reacted very strong in med-heavy oil.  It cleared the heads and mids fine and still had a very strong finish on the backends.  This ball could eat thru the carrydown for me though vs the Crunch.  However, I see that A.Chapman(my partner in crime out here) has a different opinion on this which is very interesting.  From listening to the various feedbacks, (as I stated in my other post also) the Havoc is very responsive to the various layouts applied.  It appears to be doing exactly what it is supposed to in regards to it's layout.  

Overall difference, my Havoc is easily 6-7 boards stronger for me then the Crunch.  I also don't feel the Crunch can be used for med-heavy, it wasn't designed for that much oil unless you have a ton of hand.  Hope this helps...
--------------------
Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Pro Shop Staff
Vise Grip Staff

I agree with tenpinspro. The Havoc is alot more ball than the Crunch. They both get good midlane roll/read, but the Havoc just has more of it.

my input on difference....

could the core be the big difference maker??

If everything else is about the same??
--------------------
My personal savior is common sense.
How can being so RIGHT be so very WRONG?

Anthony,

I really do not care what the numbers say, I have thrown each, the Havoc drilled leverage, the Crunch drill with the pin 4inches from my PAP. Those 2 drillings should not be that much different, but it seems to be so with these 2 balls.

The Havoc is much earlier reacting, and definately flares more than the Crunch. I get more flare out of the Havoc than I did out of the Dyno Thane Anomaly! This ball hooks....alot. In reality (and the drillings were different), but I get more hook out of this ball than I did out of either of Track Freaks I owned.

3 3/8 is going to flare more than a 4, but the difference is not going to be drastic. I did not try both polished, I did try the Crunch polished though, and it was not bad.

I think the difference is in the core. Assymetrical vs symetrical. Anthony said it himself "You maxed out an assymetical core which tends to amp up the flare also when you get close to that sweet spot". I placed the MB on the Havoc between the thumb and my VAL. The pin on the Havoc is at finger level, and the pin on the Crunch was maybe 1/4 of an inch higher.  The Crunch is a much smoother ball. I think the Havoc has a much better impact at the pins. This is not to overlook the Crunch, because I feel it is probably the most overlooked ball of 2003. As I previously stated, I don't care what the numbers say----these 2 balls are not close. Numbers are one thing, performance on the lanes are another. Numbers are a good starting point, but should not be looked into as much as what they actually do on the lanes.

Both balls move. The Havoc will handle more oil than the Crunch. I could use the Crunch on  lighter patterns, no way, with the box surface could I think about using the Havoc on lighter patterns.

Anthony,

In reality, what I expected out of the Havoc was a close reaction to the Crunch. I did not expect the Havoc to be as strong as it is. I probably is not a fair comparison because of core difference and drill difference, but I am not the one that asked for the comparison.

We can agree to disagree, that is a fair statement. But, just remember, if you have the same surface on each (1200 clean n sheen), then that could very well make them much closer.