Post by: mattypizon on January 29, 2011, 06:52:14 AM
Really frustrated with the reaction of my 505t. Drilled 50x4x40 with weight hole on my PAP. Ball flares a ton but really disappointed with backend on it. I've tried it at 500 abralon, 1000 abralon, 2000 abralon, 4000 abralon, and now back to 500 abralon with polish just to see more backend. My Gravity Shift and Tropical Heat Hybrid easily outhook it by 5 or more boards. I have to play straight up the boards or wrinkle it from 15 to 7 just to strike. On same shot I'm playing 25 to 10 with Gravity Shift.
Just looking for some insight from those of you who can help. Really appreciate it. Thanks!
Almost forgot: PAP is 4 5/8 over. Have negative tilt around 15 degrees. Rev rate is around 375. Speed is 16.5 mph. THS Brunswick synthetics oiled to 38 feet.
Post by: kidlost2000 on January 29, 2011, 03:25:42 PM
Not tried the 505T but my 505A is way too much on the backends. Got the ball for medium to lighter oil and it hooks way more then expected.
Be good, or be good at it.
Post by: Billy Ray on January 29, 2011, 04:59:15 PM
If you wanted backend you should have purchased an 'A' Ball.
the T balls all give smooth predictable backend reactions. Unless you have a lot of hand very hard to get this ball to skid snap and even then not nearly as snappy down lane as the 'A' balls.
As for the gravity shift its a much stronger ball than the 505T was designed to be.
505T was designed to be a hooking ball with controllable backend reaction, smooth and controllable at a affordable price point.
i have 2 of them both shined on with a hole on my axis and one with a hole down. both pin up and both are great balls but not snappy which is what they are designed to be.
Sorry but this ball is not going to be very strong down lane, the cover is very strong for this price point.
Billy Ray
Track Pro Staff
Owner Rays Pro Shop
At The Playdium
"Let Us Help You Become More Competitive"
Post by: mattypizon on January 29, 2011, 07:38:05 PM
I appreciate your reply. I realize now that I was trying to get the ball to do something it wasn't designed to do. I just recently started bowling again after 7 years off and was going with what used to work for me back then..............strong solid cover with polish to prevent over/under.
I just hit it with some Rough Buff tonight along with lots of Powerhouse Factory Finish and will try that this week.
How much of a difference do you notice with your 505t that has the hole down? Just curious.
Post by: MrPerfect on January 29, 2011, 08:02:55 PM
Personally, for what you want the 505T to do you probably shouldn't of gone with the pin up drilling, because that is the only way I can see the 505T being weaker than a Gravity Shift or a Tropical Heat Hybrid. Even with the pin up drilling it should only be weaker than the Gravity Shift. As far as the backend, if you are going 500 w/polish you are basically defeating the purpose of polish. The ball should at least be at 1000 before you put polish on the ball.
If you don't mind plugged balls I'd plug the ball and re-drill it. You could always try and plug the weight hole first, because putting it on the PAP was probably a bad idea. From now on when you buy a ball make sure that you throw it first before the pro shop operator attempts to make the ball legal so they actually know where to put the weight hole.
Also, when you are altering the surface are you actually running through the factory progressions? or going straight to the intended pad? Personally, I have my best experience when running the ball through this progressoin: 500, 1000, 2000, 4000, 4000 (with the six sided sanding method).
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on January 29, 2011, 10:36:44 PM
You also took the guys out of the ball with the weight hole. By putting the weight hole on your PAP you removed the most from the backend reaction of the ball. Also by going 4" you kept the ball in a really early rolling and strong rolling pin to PAP. You are also using alot of surface on a heavy rolling ball with a heavy rolling backend decreased layout and Weight hole. For more backend you should have went with something like. 60*x5"x50* with a real long pin putting the cg by the thumb and the MB way away from the thumb, this would have let you put the Weight hole down by the thumb in the P4 position to help it get more movement on the backend of the lane.
To try and save your ball now, I would say take it to 4000 abralon and hit it with some Power House Magic Shine, to help it get down through the heads and wait for it to read more on the backend. That is the best you would be able to do aside from a plug and redrill.
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Youngstown, Ohio
Track Bowling Staff Member
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: mattypizon on January 30, 2011, 10:42:58 AM
Unfortunately I didn't have any input in the ball layout other than telling them what I was looking for. In hindsight I realize the layout and weight hole placement are hindering exactly what I wanted the ball to do. I will be talking to them this week to see what we can work out whether it be a plugging of the weight hole, plug and redrill altogether, or a new ball. Funny thing is when I first tried the ball after purchasing it flared 4 or 5 inches but just went straight. My apex adrenaline from 8 yrs ago was outhooking it no joke! At the point they offered to drill me another one but then one of the other workers took it and sanded it down to 360 abralon which of course helped some but I haven't liked the reaction from Day 1.
As far as grit progressions I have tried going up from 500 all the way to 4000 as well as some of Storm's surface suggestions i.e. 500 abralon and then either the 2000 or 4000 on top. I tried the 500 with polish to see if I could still leave the deeper valleys in the cover but get skid with the tops of the peaks polished. It was just a trial on my part. Thanks again guys for your help!
Post by: Curt_Dupre on January 30, 2011, 12:55:33 PM
Unfortunately you miss the boat on our nameing system. This is the reason our bowling balls are numbered. It lets you know what kind of reaction to expect. Any bowling ball with a "T" behind the number will give you a traction shape. 505T, 715T, 920T, 930T. All read the lane strong and gives the bowler a strong smooth reaction. They have a strong solid cover. If you were looking for a ball that is strong on the back-end, then the 505A, 715A, 718A, 920A would have been the ball to get. Our "C" bowling balls, 505C and 715C reads the lane quicker than the "A" balls and are a touch smoother on the back than the "A" balls. I hope you this helps you out next time you try out a Track ball. Trust me having this number system is the greatest idea ever. It tells you exactly what reaction to expect. Let me know if you need any other help. I would be glad to help.
Trackbowling.com
Mccorveysproshop.com
Track Regional Staff
Post by: mattypizon on January 30, 2011, 01:30:09 PM
Curt: I wasn't looking for anything angular or massive on the backend. I am trying to figure out why the ball and/or layout don't match up with me. Like I said the ball went straight when I first tested it although it revved like crazy. I have way above avg revs and outhook most players on my league. I'm not a cranker but I generate a lot of rotation from my release. The ball only moves on broken down second shift conditions. If I play it the same line as a Storm Tropical Heat Hybrid the THH will go through the nose where the 505t will strike. That's just flat out crazy to me. I didn't disregard the Track numbering system. I went with what my pro shop recommended based on what I told them I wanted and left it in their hands.
And again thanks for the help guys..........will figure something out I hope.
Post by: vkowalski1970 on January 30, 2011, 05:59:22 PM
I have mine 65x5x35,pin up, and it is a very strong ball. Carries like a tank! Actually is my favorite ball I have ever owned. Its is very predictable and does well with surface changes. It does need oil in the heads! I have been able to play many angles with it and it carries a ton.
Hopefully a changed can get you to see the true potential of this ball!
Good Luck!
Post by: Curt_Dupre on January 30, 2011, 06:31:23 PM
Matt maybe you don't have enough oil for the ball. Generally speaking when you use a strong ball like a 505T, it does seem like it doesn't hook compared to shiny stuff on THS. This is because the ball is using its energy a lot earlier than shiny stuff. This may be what you are seeing. If you say go bowl on a really slick shot like Shark, you will see the 505T hook more than your hybrid. Your layout is strong relative to your PAP so it may be bleeding energy too fast. Try shining it.
Trackbowling.com
Mccorveysproshop.com
Track Regional Staff
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on January 30, 2011, 11:29:58 PM
Matt with a lower grit under the polish all that will help do is get your ball through the heads better but still leave you with to much smooth and controled motion in the mids and backend off the spot. The friction will get under the polish and hit this grit and help blend it out some. It wont help it translate into a stronger more angular move just a stronger midlane move. Try the ball at 4000 abralon and polish to help it push and save energy, also make sure you let it get to the dry also.
I really think you will need a plug and redrill to really see something more out of this ball. The cover can help but when you try to make a cover skid and flip and you get no help from the layout what so ever, you are just fighting a losing batter. It is always easier to help a ball grab earlier and roll up faster with the surface on a length and flip drilling then to make a ball skid and flip more with a early rolling layout.
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Youngstown, Ohio
Track Bowling Staff Member
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: mattypizon on February 06, 2011, 10:26:09 AM
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on February 06, 2011, 10:42:13 PM
Matt,
Please do let us know what you descide to do. If you do end up wanting to plug and redrill the ball. I can help give you a layout that can help. Even some kind of a layout that lets the ball still roll up some yet still have finish on the backend. Me and alot of the other guys here are willing to help as much as we can. So please keep us informed on what you end up doing.
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Youngstown, Ohio
Track Bowling Staff Member
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: mattypizon on February 12, 2011, 11:14:09 AM
Went to my pro shop today with the 505t. Found out my PAP is listed at 4 5/8 over 3/4 down. Not sure if that is why it has been so difficult to get a good reaction? Also, they have my balance hole at P2 not on my PAP. I thought I read that the line drawn for the weight hole is from the PAP to the thumb hole with P1 being the PAP, P4 the thumb, and P2/P3 equally spaced between. However, my pro shop draws the balance hole line from the PAP to the PSA? Is that correct?
They kept the ball to plug the balance hole and move it lower to see if that helps the finish at all. What I found interesting today was that I had to play the worn track area on the lanes to get the ball to strike and that was at 2000 abralon. In the oil the ball revved like crazy, over 4" of flare, but went straight. My cousin couldn't believe it either. On the same line my Tropical Heat Hybrid was coming in heavy. Still can't figure it out.
I really don't want to spend more money on a plug and redrill but if this plug and redrill of the balance hole doesn't give me more finish I guess I'll have to.
Thanks again guys for helping...............at least I'm learning a lot of great stuff!
Post by: mattypizon on February 12, 2011, 11:35:52 AM
I had it wrong. I just read the article at morichbowling.com about the gradient line balance hole method. I don't know what I was thinking.
Post by: racincowboy3 on February 12, 2011, 11:40:22 AM
For what its worth here is my 2 cents...
With a 4" pin buffer the ball is rolling earlier on the lane. Its already an early rolling aggressive cover that is drilled to roll early. If you want the ball to have more backend you have to get it down the lane farther. to do that you may have to take it to 2000 or 4000 and polish it on top of that to get it down the lane.
Post by: mattypizon on February 12, 2011, 12:23:08 PM
Indeed. When I get it back from pro shop I will step it up to 4000 abralon and then hit it with polish. I actually found a Meguiars Ultimate Polish that I tried on my Hyroad and it by far shines up way more than the conventional bowling polishes I have.
Will report back next week with what I find.
Post by: River700 on February 12, 2011, 03:21:48 PM
Bowling is fun, enjoy it, don't hate it
Post by: River700 on February 12, 2011, 03:57:47 PM
I have you at rev dominate with slightly slower ball speed, medium tilt and assuming medium axis rotation. That brings us to totals of 110* + or - 20*, ratios of 2:1 - 1:1, pins of 3.25" - 5.5" asymm and 4.25" - 5.5" symm to pap.
Benchmark ratio of 1.5:1
Asymm 65 x 3.25 x 45
Symm 70 x 4.25 x 40
Now for the reaction that you are looking for with the 505T. Since you said something about not wanting the ball to be a big backend ball or an early rolling piece then drill it 70 x 4 3/4 x 40. I adjusted the pin to pap because of you being rev dominate compared to speed and the nature of this ball. If you like the reaction do the smallest p2 hole to barely make it legal, if you want a little more do a p3 hole 3/4 2 1/2 deep to start. Then, do 1k, 2k, and 4k to start. If you need a bit more length do some polish on top of the final grit of 4k.
Your best bet would be to plug and redrill to this layout if you want what you were originally looking for 
Let us know how it goes.
Bowling is fun, enjoy it, don't hate it
Edited by River700 on 2/12/2011 at 5:20 PM
Edited by River700 on 2/12/2011 at 5:24 PM
Post by: mattypizon on February 14, 2011, 06:34:32 PM
I actually have Storm's Xtra Shine, Powerhouse Factory Finish, and the Meguiar's Polish. I bought the Meguiar's because it sounded very similar to Finesse It and I just wanted to try it. The only reason I mentioned it is because it seemed to polish much finer than the other 2 and it was suggested that perhaps the ball was burning up too much energy on the front part of the lane.
Thanks for the layout advice. Don't know if i want to pay for a plug and redrill or just cut my losses at this point. In reference to your recommendations, what kind of dual angle layout would work well for a Storm Reign. Looking for something that will utilize the ball's designed strengths???
Post by: vkowalski1970 on February 14, 2011, 08:35:54 PM
Post by: River700 on February 14, 2011, 09:38:57 PM
Matty, if you could post something about the storm reign on bowlingchat under ball layout and advice then we can go from there. As far as the plug and redrill, you could always wait and when you get some more cash you could get it plugged and then redrilled, but lets continue this over at bowlingchat :)
Bowling is fun, enjoy it, don't hate it
Post by: scotts33 on February 17, 2011, 08:39:47 AM
Good explanation of what's going on easy to see in vid shot by Britton Rieder.
Scott
Post by: vkowalski1970 on February 17, 2011, 08:48:41 AM