Post by: splendorlex on August 10, 2006, 07:55:44 AM
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Post by: tenpinspro on August 10, 2006, 04:07:31 PM
As we all know (or should know by now
) that any asym ball with mb left of thumb calls for extreme length, it even has more influence on the Machine due to it's mb strength of .025. One question, is he a down and in player? If he is, he may be able to make use of this fairly well. The ball will naturally still push down lane for him even though it's a pin in drill. Hope this helps some...
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Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on August 10, 2006, 08:31:00 PM
I am in agreement with Rick. Placing the MB in that position significantly weakens a ball------------or does not necessarily take advantage of what the core has to offer as far as reaction.
-Carl
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Carl Hurd
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Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on August 10, 2006, 10:13:22 PM
quote:
He does not have to be a down and inner to utilize the MB on the left of the thumb. Hey Rick have you ever heard of the Steve Cook Classic? The guys who hit that place are either up the back or have stuff drilled to lay off. I personally went nuts there when I drilled balls that layed off on the back. Used an X- Factor Duece and a Shock Trauma. By the way I was able to open the lane up with that lay out.
I think that Rick was speaking in general terms. When MOST people get a ball along the lines of the Machine they are expecting strong movement.......going left of thumb normally tames that down quite a bit.
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Edited on 8/10/2006 10:43 PM
Post by: charlest on August 10, 2006, 10:47:05 PM
In other words, the higher the intermediate or mass bias differential, the fewer are the chances or valid reasons for placing the MB to the left of the thumb on a right handers ball.
In more "other" words, (IF) the farther from the PAP you place the MB AND the higher the mass bias differential, (THEN) the longer the ball will go before it starts to turn over (grab the lane, begin the hook to roll transition) and the less backend the ball will have, given the oil pattern, the surface of the ball and bowler's release specs and ball speed.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: SnoopyCanBowl on August 11, 2006, 03:05:07 AM
Check this out...this will answer ALL ya'll question.
http://www.ebonite.com/techcenter/pinposdynreact.php
I like the third paragraph. Didn't know about adding the rg and differential together and dividing it to know exact rg. All I know was the lower the rg the earlier it hook and higher the later it hook and differential is the amount it hook.
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Have Fun while You Can!!!!
Post by: dw23 on August 11, 2006, 03:27:02 AM
All this to say if he spins the ball he may get a little more pop on the back with this drilling.
Thanks,
DW
Post by: dizzyfugu on August 11, 2006, 03:38:15 AM
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- PatMacDonaldPost by: CoachJim on August 11, 2006, 03:53:56 AM
Post by: tenpinspro on August 11, 2006, 03:59:32 AM
You are correct and I was speaking in general terms. In regards to your equipment working for you, that simply means this layout matches up to your game. If you can open up the lane with it, that tells me either you have a higher rev to speed ratio and/or you have a higher axis rotation then most combined with a fair amount of tilt. From experience, any high tracker as dizzy mentions becomes subject to rolling over the gripping holes.
DW, this layout works for the spinner or low tracker because it actually raises the track which is what your friend may have needed to get the ball into a "roll" vs spinning down the lane too far and maybe entering the pocket too late (bad angle or never stood up). That's why high trackers also continue to roll up and that's what causes it to roll over the holes.
It all depends upon the ball guys, the Mean has a mb diff of .025. This I believe is stronger than any of the balls mentioned (I just wrote my Storm rep to find out). So Charlest, you are understanding this concept correctly.
Here's the simple one guys, if this were not true on an average, I would not expect this company to post it publicly and state what they do. This is on their ball with a mb diff of .027
Drilling #5 - *DO NOT DRILL* http://www.ebonite.com/techcenter/drilling_instructions.php?title=The%20One
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Post by: tenpinspro on August 11, 2006, 04:24:30 AM
quote:
In more "other" words, (IF) the farther from the PAP you place the MB AND the higher the mass bias differential, (THEN) the longer the ball will go before it starts to turn over (grab the lane, begin the hook to roll transition) and the less backend the ball will have, given the oil pattern, the surface of the ball and bowler's release specs and ball speed.
Charlest, in addition to what I mentoined, the higher the mass bias diff, the more "influence" it will have on the ball's breakpoint. Take 2 asym balls, one mb at .015 and one at .025, (identical cover, rg, and differential hypothetically). Drill them identical for the bowler (pin and mb left of thumb in the same position from pap), the ball with the .025 mb should go significantly longer and have less overall movement comparatively. The magic number for influential mass bias is .008. So common sense tells us that a ball with a low mb diff (.010) has less effect (and can still hook) compared to a ball with .025 when placed in the same position from the bowler's pap. Hope this maks sense bud...
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Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
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Post by: Slopsurprise on August 11, 2006, 08:54:11 AM
Post by: Robadat on August 11, 2006, 09:52:04 AM
Bob
Post by: charlest on August 11, 2006, 09:56:48 AM
quote:quote:
In more "other" words, (IF) the farther from the PAP you place the MB AND the higher the mass bias differential, (THEN) the longer the ball will go before it starts to turn over (grab the lane, begin the hook to roll transition) and the less backend the ball will have, given the oil pattern, the surface of the ball and bowler's release specs and ball speed.
Charlest, in addition to what I mentoined, the higher the mass bias diff, the more "influence" it will have on the ball's breakpoint. Take 2 asym balls, one mb at .015 and one at .025, (identical cover, rg, and differential hypothetically). Drill them identical for the bowler (pin and mb left of thumb in the same position from pap), the ball with the .025 mb should go significantly longer and have less overall movement comparatively. The magic number for influential mass bias is .008. So common sense tells us that a ball with a low mb diff (.010) has less effect (and can still hook) compared to a ball with .025 when placed in the same position from the bowler's pap. Hope this maks sense bud...
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Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl. - Amateur/Pro Shop Staff
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
I thought that WAS what I said, EL Presidente???
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: FBM357 on August 11, 2006, 11:29:22 AM
quote:
That sounds like my track. Although I have no asym. equipment with MB left of the thumb, I do have great success with pins LEFT of my bridge. Like pin above/below middle finger (right hander). Since regionals out here in the east seem to be putting down low volumes of oil, I was thinking of doing some MB left of thumb equipment.
Hmm, really interesting, as I've an inverted track as well and recently (for the first time) drilled a ball with pin under mid as well. Very good length and strong movement on the back. All of my other equipment is drilled with pin above, below and slightly to right of ring with MB kicked right of thumb. I also polish all of my equipment as well.
I had a ball drilled with MB left of thumb (original Rule) and I kid you not, it resembled a 'counter-steering' type movement. Other words, ball wanted to turn the corner, but forces were trying to pull it in the opposite direction, hence 'weak hit' or something similar to a 'hook set' type roll.
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Edited on 8/11/2006 11:24 AM
Post by: Djarum on August 11, 2006, 11:56:57 AM
Dj
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Post by: tenpinspro on August 11, 2006, 01:52:49 PM
quote:
Hey Rick, I know a guy with a very inverted track(further away from thumb than fingers) that always lays his MB left of thumb. I have seen him throw other balls with MB right of thumb and they do not work at all for him. With the MB left of thumb he still seems to get the balls full track flare and performance though. Does this have to do with his PAP being down vs. up?
Exactly Slop, due to the fact that his vertical movement on his val is downwards, mb's right of thumb are now much closer to pap and will cause the weight block to flare or migrate faster. Therefore, by placing it left of thumb, it helps create the required amount of delay/skid which then results in the "proportionate" amount of skid, hook and roll for that bowler.
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quote:
That sounds like my track. Although I have no asym. equipment with MB left of the thumb, I do have great success with pins LEFT of my bridge. Like pin above/below middle finger (right hander). Since regionals out here in the east seem to be putting down low volumes of oil, I was thinking of doing some MB left of thumb equipment.
Hey Eric, it should also work well for you if you already can utilize pins in the negative finger quadrant. It also depends on how high the track is for the inverted player as well. If he/she tracks very high inverted (near fingers and thumb), he/she also risks the chance of rolling over the finger holes (seen this before also).
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quote:
I thought that WAS what I said, EL Presidente???
LOL...Yes you did Charlest, I just thought I'd use numbers to help paint the bigger picture. Wasn't sure if everyone else understood you.
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It varies from ball to ball based on core design and strength. Some can be utilized in this manner while some can cause you to flare back towards the gripping holes.
Look at it this way guys (w/o getting technical), we have 2 controlling weights in an asym ball (pin and mb). If we place one weight to the left of our hand and then the other weight to the right side of our hand, what do we get? The weights fight themselves or offset each other (generically speaking) causing quite a bit of delay in the the overall motion.
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Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
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Edited on 8/11/2006 2:02 PM
Post by: jls on August 11, 2006, 03:02:15 PM
however, there are many older bowler's using tamer equipment, and when they get into a new high tech ball, it could be overkill for their styles.
we have drilled 3 machines for bowler's that way { by their request }
and they get along fine with it. they are looking for length with a smoother
controlled backend. also there { believe it or not }are many bowlers who do not want a balance hole in their balls.
most younger bowler's probably would not want their ball drilled in this way.
they are looking for hook, hook, and more hook, and backend.
as a ball driller we try to match a drilling towards the style of the bowler.
this is one of the things i don't like about ebonite putting the big x on this drilling for their Ones. i have had talks with many bowlers who get along very well with that type of drilling, on a certain condition. mostly older bowler's.
but for young guys, it's the kiss of death.
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jls31316
Post by: tenpinspro on August 11, 2006, 03:29:37 PM
quote:
also there { believe it or not }are many bowlers who do not want a balance hole in their balls.
LOL...Don't you hate this?...LOL Then they complain that it doesn't hook like the "other" guy's ball...lol
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Post by: jls on August 11, 2006, 03:59:01 PM
but strong drilling's are not for everyone.
so we just try to match up a drilling to their style that they can work with.
also, keeping in mind, that most bowler's are still using a bread and butter ball. the word arsenal has no meaning to them.
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jls31316
Post by: splendorlex on August 11, 2006, 04:04:51 PM
I really appreciate it. As far as my Father in Law, he is what I would consider a down and inner. He likes to play down the boards around the second arrow, and he has lowish revs and speed around 15-16 at the pin deck. He also has a suitcase-like release, and might be considered a bit of a "spinner." I personally noticed the ball often seems to lack power at the pins, leaving 5's, 8's, 10's and such on solid pocket hits. I'm thinking that the layout of the ball may be why. Part of the problem is that we play in an old wood house, so there is always a LOT of hook to be had, and he wants to try to control it. I suspect he may have said he wanted more control when the ball was drilled. Thanks again!--------------------
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Post by: jls on August 11, 2006, 04:12:15 PM
adjustment. but i think he will be ok.
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jls31316
Post by: CoachJim on August 12, 2006, 03:11:25 AM
If you Father in Law is a low tracker or "spinner" then placing the pin to the right of the fingers is like placing the pin close to a pin axis position for a high tracker. This type of pin placement makes the ball roll earlier and have less motion on the back end. If this is the case it would explain the weak hits on strike shots, these drillings are usually used by high rev players, who are looking for a controlled reaction off the break point.
Most ball drillers that don't know what they are doing place the pin at "1:30" to the center of the grip and place the cg in the center of the grip because they don't know where to put the weight hole if they do anything else with it.
These clowns usually stretch the span past any level of comfort and put a ton of reverce pitch in the thumb, so much so it ensures the bowler will develop hand and wrist problems, as well as never be able to release a ball properly.
Post by: tenpinspro on August 12, 2006, 01:05:01 PM
quote:
If you Father in Law is a low tracker or "spinner" then placing the pin to the right of the fingers is like placing the pin close to a pin axis position for a high tracker. This type of pin placement makes the ball roll earlier and have less motion on the back end. If this is the case it would explain the weak hits on strike shots, these drillings are usually used by high rev players, who are looking for a controlled reaction off the break point.
Most ball drillers that don't know what they are doing place the pin at "1:30" to the center of the grip and place the cg in the center of the grip because they don't know where to put the weight hole if they do anything else with it.
These clowns usually stretch the span past any level of comfort and put a ton of reverce pitch in the thumb, so much so it ensures the bowler will develop hand and wrist problems, as well as never be able to release a ball properly.
Wow...amazing, great explanation Coach Jim. I also see these same errors in my area. The stretched span came about in the 60's or 70's I learned and it was called a "full" fingertip vs our "relaxed" tip. It puts a ton of strain on our tendons, just simply horrible.
The 1:30 standard layout came about sometime in the 80's I'd say when they (Faball) stumbled upon the pin out when one of their cores shifted during the curing process. Amazing how these drillers have been stuck in some time warp that they never advanced their drilling techniques into the present.
Splendor, this may not be bad for your father in law but it still depends on how much head oil there is to help him skid and conserve some energy downlane. If they're real dry up front as well (blk/wht and assuming he stays at 10 board), the ball may use too much energy up front and still hit a little flat on the backend. Keep us posted as jls stated, thanks.
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