Post by: LuckyLefty on March 26, 2012, 11:24:04 PM
Okay....I give!
Both with a variation of the legion core, both pearl!
Which one or both is supposed to be an improved version of the 607ASE?
Regards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Edited by LuckyLefty on 3/26/2012 at 9:39 PM
Post by: trackfiend on March 26, 2012, 11:53:19 PM
Post by: Strider on March 27, 2012, 08:03:50 AM
Since the cover is still ~70% of the ball's reaction and both balls use completely different covers...
Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive
Post by: LuckyLefty on March 27, 2012, 11:38:12 AM
Strider,
Description of 508A
First we started with the ever popular Legion Core that we used in the best-selling Track ball in recent years, the 607A. Next we worked on creating a cover that would be just as angular as the cover used on the 505A. After testing several different covers, we said to ourselves, “if it isn’t broke, don’t fix it.” By combining the MP GEN 4 Reactive Pearl veneer and the Legion Core, we have provided Track fans with a ball motion that is stronger than the 505A while maintaining the same overall look on the lanes.
Description of the 811SE
Description: Track Bowling decided we needed a stronger, more dynamic version of the 607A SE. With that thought in mind, we bring to you the all new 811A Special Edition featuring a brand new core, the “Legion 2 Turbo”. This unique core started out as a symmetric core shape but then was modified into an asymmetric core to get the exact RG, Differential, and Mass Bias numbers we were looking for. This perfectly tuned core is the “Heart and Soul” of the new 811A SE. With the Mass Bias being 0.011, this ball is set up to give the most angular backend reaction to the widest range of bowlers and styles. To go along with our new “Legion 2 Turbo” core we are also introducing an amazing new coverstock, the “SE8 GEN1” which includes “Crystalline Mica”, an all-new performance pearl additive. This additive is 15% more responsive off the dry than what was used in the 607A SE
I haven't seen them and I read Names of coverstocks but it doesn't mean much too me. Could you expand on your thoughts? Thanks for your help!
Regards,
Luckylefty
I haven't seen them and I read Names of coverstocks but it doesn't mean much too me. Could you expand on your thoughts?
Thanks,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Edited by LuckyLefty on 3/27/2012 at 10:05 AM
Post by: Curt_Dupre on March 27, 2012, 12:24:41 PM
Trackbowling.com
Mccorveysproshop.com
Track Regional Staff
Post by: LuckyLefty on March 27, 2012, 12:36:38 PM
Curt,
That was really helpful! Thank you.
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS I am surprised I am seeing Michael Fagen use the 811SE as a spare ball, what gives there!?
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Post by: Nails on March 27, 2012, 12:41:45 PM
Supposedly Track came up with this number system so there wouldn't be any questions about the balls. The first number is the cover strength. The 8 series should in theory be quite a bit stronger than the 5 series. For some reason it's not always accurate. The 5 series has always been under rated as far as cover strength.
Telling it like it is.
Post by: MrPerfect on March 28, 2012, 10:21:36 AM
I don't know about Fagan, but while I have a plastic ball I do the same thing occasionally with my high end Track equipment. The reason is that with swelling, or lack thereof, my thumbs isn't always the same and sometimes one ball just feels better than the other. I know I can kill any ball, but first and foremost I need to be confident that I'm going to clear the thumb cleanly in order to achieve my desired result.
Considering how much Fagan used the 811 during the week in order to make the show it really isn't all that suprising that he used the ball he was most confident in for his spares. Unfortunately for him it didn't match up with the shot he saw during the telecast or he would have been using it for his first and second ball.
Post by: jls on March 28, 2012, 01:01:23 PM
Sir, good point...However I do believe most touring pros have their thumb holes drilled on
the large side and rely on TAPE...
And yes, touring pro's do have the ability to use just about any ball to pick up the 10/7 pin...
In fact, many house bowlers do...
The point sir is this...
When a consumer sees a HP ball being used on TV as a spare ball...They may get the wrong
idea about said balls hooking ability...
We play the telecast of the bowling shows here at the shop...I can tell you this...Most people
watching the show want to see what balls are being used...And when several customer's saw
11A on the ball being used to pick up the 10 pin...They asked about it...And then they figured
out it was the 811A...A HP ball..."a angular HP ball"...
And these customer's had a very negative image of the 811A after seeing that...Because most know
that MOST pro's use Plastic...
So IMO, I do not believe IT HELPS with the sales of a HP BALL, when consumer's see it being
used a a 10 pin ball...
Please keep in mine...MOST of the people that bowl and watch the telecast are NOT Mr. 220...
And they may not be up on some of the things a better bowlers does...Your point...
So if they see a companies latest release being used as a spare ball... They may indeed get
the wrong image of said ball...And that sir, could hurt sales of said ball...
Now lets be honest here...The 811A is not jumping off the shelves...<<<FEW BALLS ARE...
So we really don't need to see anything that could be seen as Negative about a balls performance...
I did notice on the last telecast that he was not using the 811A as a spare ball...
jls
Edited by jls on 3/28/2012 at 2:09 PM
Post by: ccrider on March 28, 2012, 01:09:33 PM
Those that can do. Those that can't complain. Pimpin ain't easy, but it's mandatory.
Most things we like, we don't need. Most things we need, we don't like. Don't confuse your likes with your needs.
Post by: LuckyLefty on March 28, 2012, 01:33:12 PM
JLS,
Very well explained regarding my impression of the high end ball being used as a spare ball!
I'll tell you one ball I can't pick up a spare with or would if I wanted for some reason to reduce my chances succeeding would be my Virtual Gravity! Boy does the high reactivity of that ball make it hard for me!
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS glad I wasn't the only one!
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Post by: jls on March 28, 2012, 01:38:46 PM
CC, sir that is exactly the point I was trying to make...
Not every bowler that buys a ball is MR 220, like Slick Willie the bias staffer...
People read up on the new releases...And when they see a ball billed as "Angular" or "extremely
angular" they expect big time hook on the back end...
And they seem to have a problem when they see said ball being used on the PBA Tour Finals as
a 10 pin ball...
We play the telecast of the last show here at the shop...So when customer's are waiting they
watch the show...Cause as we all know, hardly anyone watch's the show on Sunday...
And when customer's saw the 11A on the ball Fagen use as a 10 pin ball... They ZOOMED in
to see what ball it was... I said nothing...But customer's aren't STUPID... And in seconds
they figured it out... 811A...
And their reactions were, "if it's so angular, then why is Fagen using it as a 10 pin ball in an
Important tournament...Especially in the FINALS"...
When MOST of the time we see the Pros on TV use PLASTIC...
IMO, this will not help with the sales of the 811A...
This was the point I tried to make...But slick Willie the staffer went postal and said Fagen
can use anything and throw it at the 10 pin...
WOW that's AMAZING...A touring pro can pick up a 10 pin with a HP BALL...WOW...
Heck, even I can do that...LOL
BTW, I noticed Fagen was NOT USING THE 811A on last weeks show...
And NAILS was "spot on" when he said that their numbers don't always much up...
And it's US PRO SHOPS that sell the balls that TAKE THE HEAT WHEN SAID BALLS
DON'T MEASURE UP TO THE HYPE...
Especially HYPE from bias staffers...
Now once again... IMO the 811A is a good piece of equipment when used on the right shot...
jls
Edited by jls on 3/28/2012 at 1:30 PM
Post by: CubsFan on March 28, 2012, 02:20:08 PM
I'm pretty certain the show last week was part of the group taped back in November. I also noticed he was not using his 811 on that show, nor was he wearing a running shoe on his non-slide foot. He must have started those practices sometime between the taping of those shows and the U.S. Open. Not sure if he was using plastic during The Masters (the first live show) against Barnes.
Post by: Nails on March 28, 2012, 02:34:45 PM
To continue the side bar...
Not that it matters, but I'm pretty sure Duke doesn't use plastic for spares. He either uses his strike ball or another resin ball. Probably one he warmed up with and is comfortable with the feel. Duke does play with tape a lot, so once he's comfortable with it, he'll throw it at anything.
I don't remember if Fagan used to use plastic, but the other guy did have a point about him being able to throw any ball straight since he throws that baby back up. If it's feel he's looking for, I wonder why he just doesn't use his strike ball (like the 607A SE) for spares. I like my spare ball's thumb hole to be extra tight. Since I flatten out my hand, if it's the least bit loose I tend to drop it. Maybe that's why Duke or Fagan just use another "strike" ball for spares. It's already on the rack, and maybe they had time to tape it up just right for spares. I understand your point about not using the latest "greatest" HP ball for spares though.
Telling it like it is.
Post by: PLM on March 28, 2012, 03:37:16 PM
I'm sorry to hear the 811A is having some sales problems. It is the first Track ball I have owned, and I really am liking it.
Post by: jls on March 28, 2012, 04:07:24 PM
Sir, the 811A is a good piece of equipment...
What I meant sir was this...Most balls are not jumping off the shelf...Very few are what I would
call "big time sellers"
Did not mean the 811A was not selling because of poor performance...Meant like many models
out there, slow sales due to the economy...and the fact that there are way too many balls on the market...
Now feel good about your 811A...
jls
Post by: Curt_Dupre on March 28, 2012, 04:57:06 PM
Trackbowling.com
Mccorveysproshop.com
Track Regional Staff
Post by: jls on March 28, 2012, 05:50:44 PM
"Sir, the 811A is a good piece of equipment"...
This quote was in several of my post...Reading is a skill, get some...
What you seem to be missing here is this... Not every bowler who buys a HP ball is a Mr. 220...
Like I said, IMO most pros as well as high average league bowlers can probably pick up the 10 pin using their
strike ball...Even I can...
However for a number of years now...Most pros on TV USE PLASTIC...And the ball makers push plastic
on house bowlers as a way to pick up their 10 pins...And have sold BOO KOO numbers of plastic balls as
a result of this...
So seeing a skilled bowler using a companies latest HP ball being used as a spare ball tends to confuse people
and leads them to think that said ball may not be so angular...
As I posted, all of the customers in my shop that saw that had a negative view of said ball...
Now as for your childish third grader remark of "grow up"
Gag me with a spoon...You are a typical bias staffer...Two months from now you will be hawking the next
"A" ball, and the 811A will be downgraded...cause it won't hook as much or be as angular... Now don't
deny that we don't see this on this site ALL THE TIME...
You see, there are only 39 boards on the lanes... So there is only so much hook...Unless of course you hype up LaneOne, then there are an extra 5 boards...
"grow up" "Laughing in your face" you love to fling insults... Even when one is pointing out the truth...
I'll bet if we go back a few years and read your post on the 715A...It will be "Extremely angular" ...
Until the 718A came out... etc etc etc...
now
are we clear
Funny on my HDTV I see MOST Pro's using plastic...Now if it is soooo darn easy, then why do theyuse plastic....Is it so their ball makers can sell more plastic balls...
jls
Post by: ccrider on March 28, 2012, 06:04:07 PM
For sure, the 811A is the most angular spare ball that Track makes.
Those that can do. Those that can't complain. Pimpin ain't easy, but it's mandatory.
Most things we like, we don't need. Most things we need, we don't like. Don't confuse your likes with your needs.
Post by: jls on March 28, 2012, 06:22:03 PM
Sir, since I can't use Willie anymore...oops
It's all about IMAGE...These pros all are working for the ball companies...
That's why they wear the shirts that say. Track, Ebonite, Hammer, Columbia, Storm etc...
Let me give you an example...
A few years ago the USGA banned wedges with U-Groves on Tour...
Now certain wedges made in the 70's were "grandfather in" and acceptable to use...
Phil Michelson decided to use his "grandfather" ping wedge on tour... Even tho he
was working for Calaway...
That sir, did not go over well with MOST PGA PROS, and I'll bet Calaway wasn't too happy
either...
Why you ask....Well what message did that send to their customers...
"Our best player does not want to use our newest $119 wedges on tour...He prefers to use
his pre 1979 Ping wedge"...
Now sir, that could lead people to believe that the $119 Calaway wedges are NO GOOD...
Cause if they were, they Phil would be using them instead of 31 year old grandfather Ping
wedges...
Now I know this will be hard for you to comprehend... But try...
It was a Bad message to send, and in a few weeks, Phil stopped using them and went back
to Calaway wedges...NOW I WONDER WHY...
The point now as it was before...
If people see a HP ball being use as a 10 pin ball, they may think said ball is not that good...
Unlike you, I am concerned about the image of the 811A...
The truth hurts,
Now I'm sure you will come back with "laughing in your face" or "grow Up" type remarks...
btw, how is the third grade...oops
still clear
jls
Post by: Curt_Dupre on March 28, 2012, 07:30:52 PM
Please tell me what proshop you work for, because you are the reason bowling is declining. What's funny is I wasn't on staff with Track when the 715A came out. But I give my honest opinion on everything. Also I can say the the 811A is our most angular ball, because it is the cleanest cover through the front part of the lane out of all of our numbered series. I am a PBA member, regional champion, and Track staffer. Numerous people respect my opinion because I do not lie. I have been bowling since I was born. To be made fun of by you sitting behind you computer is ridiculous. Just stay out of the Track forums. You are truly nothing but a troll.
If anyone needs help with Track balls, PM me. I will answer every question I can.
Trackbowling.com
Mccorveysproshop.com
Track Regional Staff
Post by: jls on March 29, 2012, 11:54:37 AM
When you learn to read, you will see that NO WHERE did I knock the performance of the
811A...My comments were and are all about the image the consumer gets when said consumer
sees a HP ball being used on the Tour telecast as a spare ball...
No I am not the reason, it's people like you....The Mr. 220 no it all's who are driving the
average bowler away from the game...
EXAMPLE..
Bowlers in their 40's and 50's and 60's can no longer compete with the young guns of today...So it is
foolish for them to get in pots...And therefore since they know they had chance to win a pot,
bowling becomes very expensive for them...
25-30 to bowl, 6-8 to get in Hdcp. pot, 10 to get in doubles, etc etc...and then there is the cost
of beer...So a nite of bowling becomes a 50-60-70 expense...And since they can win few pots,
they quit bowling...
And these are the same people who buy balls...This may come as a shock to you, but Mr 187,
179, 195 also buy HP balls...And they read up on said balls...And they don't understand all the hype...
So when they read "ANGULAR" they have a problem when they see said ball being used as
a 10 pin ball....
Sure "laughing in your face" pro's can thru a kill shot, heck most house bowlers can...
But for years now...The Pro's have used spare balls...And the ball companies sold
boo koo plastic balls as a result of this...
I laid out example after example... But since you have NO READING SKILLS, they went right over
your head...All you can do is come back with insults...
Recently I discussed this very same issue with a VP of a certain ball company...It's called
marketing a product...
Now take your "reason for declining" and stick it...
You are a typical bias staffer...
About 70 percent of bowlers who buy HP balls average under 200...
And these are the bowlers who are leaving the game...
And that is why the game is declining...
Now take a class in reading...It's a skill, get some...
jls
Post by: HankScorpio on March 29, 2012, 12:00:30 PM
Post by: littlegreycat on March 29, 2012, 12:42:32 PM
Post by: jls on March 29, 2012, 12:53:06 PM
Please, such a typical response...
You are also clueless as to what this is all about...
So let me bore you and your friend Curt...
At 9:14 this morning, a customer called and asked if we have the Frantic...Yes we do...So at 10:01
said customer came in to buy said ball...Yes since we are a REAL pro shop we are open more
than 5-8 at nite...
While fitting the customer to said ball, the subject came up as why he wanted said ball...
Now you're going to get a kick out of this...He saw Pete Weber using said ball to WIN the
US OPEN...And Pete used it as a strike ball...Not a spare ball...
Now to date...NO ONE has come in to our shop and asked if we have the 811A spare ball that
Fagen used... I wonder why...
Now I'm sure you and Curt are totally confused...It's called marketing a product...
Storm and Ebonite pay pro's to wear those shirts that say Storm or Ebonite or Track or Hammer or
Columbia etc etc...and they also pay them to use their HP balls...And when said pro uses said
HP ball on TV, CONSUMERS SEE THAT, AND TEND TO BUY SAID BALLS...
Am I going to fast for you...
Consumers are not TURNED ON BY $200 HP balls being used as spare balls...
Now of course "laughing in your face" Fagen or Duke can use any of their strike balls and kill it
to pick up the 10 pin...Heck, even my wife can...
But IMO...The ball companies would PREFER that the pro's throw their HP balls at the pocket...
Kinda sorta like Weber did when winning the US OPEN...And IMO they would prefer their Pro's
to throw their plastic balls at the 10 pin, like Weber did...
It;s called marketing...
Now I laid out several examples of this, but your friend CURT ignores them or simply can't
address them...So he just replies with 3rd grade insults...
And then you come on with a typical geek response...
move along
jls
Post by: LuckyLefty on March 29, 2012, 01:23:44 PM
Hmmm,
I'd like to say I really enjoyed Curt DuPre's response to my post and appreciate his offer of help and comments.
I also agree with JLS comments on what seeing a strike ball used for 10 pins not being a great marketing statement on a ball being a strike ball, though I believe the message is being delivered a bit more harshly than it probably should be.
.I use my strike balls for spares a lot know becuase my anatomy makes it very difficult for me to back up a ball, so if I can straiten out a fingertip strike ball it makes it easy when I switch to my Plastic.
Note, If I ever wanted to lose a match I would use my 900 Global Bounty Hunter or my Virtual Gravity to throw at 7 pins. The highly reactive coverstocks make it so hard for me I would dramatically decrease my percentage on those tough corner pin spares for me!
I wish I still new how to block any more comments on this thread.
I am going to a demo day soon for Ebonite and I am excited to try at least the 508A! Yeah!
REgards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Post by: AlBundy33 on March 29, 2012, 01:27:49 PM
"Pretty women make us buy beer, ugly women make us drink beer"
Post by: Curt_Dupre on March 29, 2012, 02:39:08 PM
I am glad I could help Lefty. JLS considering the proshop I work at is open 11-9 everyday, I would consider it a real proshop. I don't need to get into a pissing contest with you. Just keep telling your customers that a ball is bad because a pro uses it sometimes as a spare ball. Things like this make me wonder how bowling has made it through times. I will say one last thing, if I were to go to a golf pro shop, I would ask the operator HIS or HER opinion about golf clubs, etc. You know why? Because they are the experts not me. When did EVERYONE become experts in bowling?
Trackbowling.com
Mccorveysproshop.com
Track Regional Staff
Post by: jls on March 29, 2012, 03:45:17 PM
Once again Curt... Why don't you show ALL exactly where I ever said the 811A wasn't a good
ball... As Lefty pointed out...Seeing it used a 10 pin ball could indeed send the wrong message to
consumers...That and that only was my point...
I saw first hand very negative reactions from customer's who saw the ball being used as a10 pin ball..
Not every customer is a skilled bowler...About 70% average under 200...And they are influence by what they
read online or may see on TV...So for some they may not fully understand all the reasons a pro might use a
HP ball as a spare ball...Get off your high horse already Mr 220...Their are a lot of Mr 185's out there bowling
and buying HP balls...
And when they see Track's most angular ball being used as a 10 pin ball...They may indeed get the wrong
impression of said ball...
For the life of me I can't understand why you can't understand that...
Companies spend millions on advertising...IMO I don't believe any company would want to see their
newest most "angular" HP ball being used as a 10 pin ball...
Now I'm sure Jason and Pete can use anything to pick up the 10 pin...But I see them using Plastic...
Now Please go back thru all of my post and show all of your friends where I said the 811A was a bad ball...
Cause I never did...
But you won't cause all you know how to do is run your mouth and make 3rd grade insults...
Reading is a skill, now get some...
Now you and your 2 friends can have the final word...
I'm going golfing...I will be using the new R-11S driver to hit my tee shots with...Not to putt with...
But I'm sure most pro's on Taylor's staff can putt with their driver... But don't...
jls
Post by: jls on March 29, 2012, 03:47:28 PM
jls
Post by: Nails on March 29, 2012, 03:59:58 PM
Not to jump on jls's bandwagon, but...
Don't forget - the small percentage of us who live for bowling web sites are not the norm. Even if all of us aren't the greatest bowlers, we still all hunger for much more knowledge than the typical league bowler.
Even though averages (for top bowlers) and honor scores continue at record pace, the "average" male bowler still shoots about 175 and women 165 (don't quote me on exact numbers). Probably 90% of the people who buy from the pro shops (that would exclude a great many people here who know you can steal a few bucks from them by buying on line) are John and Jane once a week bowlers. If they see a top pro switch from their strike ball to another ball to shoot a 10 pin, they will probably assume it's a low end or plastic ball. If Fagan used the 811A for strikes and spares, who knows what they would think, but since he only threw the 811A at 10 pins, it does send a message to the unaware. WE all know the difference, but does the great majority of bowlers? Those are the people that pro shop owners have to convince that the 811A is more than just for spares.
Telling it like it is.
Post by: HankScorpio on March 29, 2012, 04:14:45 PM
Lol, all that time you spent typing that up, and you never once stopped to think "hey, he never did say if he agrees with me or not." Instead, you immediately jumped to the insults like a child. Which brings me right back to: "Now I remember why I don't come here anymore."
For the record, I agree with your premise. The ratings are low enough that I doubt it has quite as big of an impact as you claim, but I do agree that it could scare away some customers here and there. I also agree with the fact that the pros can do whatever they want, its their livelihood and they should be throwing whatever they think would work best.
But please, go on with the insults. It really helps strengthen your points. Notice how nobody is siding with you? It isn't because everybody disagrees...
Post by: jls on March 29, 2012, 04:30:56 PM
Nails...excellent post...It's just a shame that a so called staffer can't see the trees in the forest...
He thinks because he is a Mr 220, and only Mr.220's buy HP balls...everyone should know the tricks of the
trade...But MOST BOWLERS who buy HP balls are not Mr.220's....
Correct me if I am wrong here....BUT I CAN'T RECALL seeing anyone from Storm/Roto using a HP ball as
a spare ball on NATIONAL TV... But customer's do indeed see and remember Mr. Weber using the Frantic
to win the US OPEN...AS A STRIKE BALL...
One day the ball company CEO's will start to realize that the bulk of HP sales is with average bowlers...
Who make up about 70-80% of bowlers...
The same average person that plays golf and buys a $399 Taylor or Callaway driver...Yet can't break 90...
And this person Curt said I am the reason for bowling's decline...
NO, It's Mr 220 POT STEELER'S THAT ARE THE REASON... They are the ones driving Mr.187, Mr 192, Mr 179 AWAY FROM THE GAME...
CAUSE THEY NOW REALIZE THEY ARE NOTHING MORE THEN "POT" DONATERS...
So why pay $25-$30 to bowl 3 games, $6-$8 to get in Hdcp. $10 to get in doubles...with little or no
chance of winning...And may the big guy in the Sky forgive if a average bowler with STICKS should win
a pot...The Mr. 220's usually go postal on them...
Which drives them from the game...
The truth sucks...Right Curt............
jls
Post by: jls on March 29, 2012, 04:40:39 PM
I guess you missed the post from Nails or lucky lefty or CC...They all seemed to see my point...
Now as for the insults...I do believe your boy willie started with them..."laughing in your Face"
Oh that's right....READING IS A SKILL, YOU LACK...
Now why don't you go back and read all the post...And try to comprehend what you read...
I know it will be hard for you...
And if you are so unhappy with this site...Why don't you leave...Cause it's clear you can't address the topic...
All you do is come on and pretend your Ragnor with, "now I know why I don't come on this site"
If you think your so high and mighty, go somewhere else...
Bottom line.... Sales of some HP balls are HURTING...And it does not help SALES when a consumer
sees a HP ball being used as a 10 pin ball...
You would think a Track staffer would be able to understand MARKETING...
now
are we clear
jls
Post by: HankScorpio on March 29, 2012, 05:46:36 PM
Why exactly is Curt my boy? You act as if I'm defending Track. I've never owned a Track ball, so that would be an odd thing for me to do. You do seem to like to assume things though, so its not out of character.
It is hilarious to see you telling everyone that they can't read. Have you seen how you write? Still, it isn't NEARLY as hilarious as YOU calling someone else high and mighty.
As far as me going somewhere else, you don't have to twist my arm. I'll make you a deal. I'll leave as long as you stay here. Are we clear?
Post by: Juggernaut on March 29, 2012, 09:15:00 PM
Let me point out a few facts that may help, or at least make this thing understandable.
#1. STAFFERS ARE USUALLY ABOVE AVERAGE IN BOTH ABILITY AND KNOWLEDGE OF THE EQUIPMENT.
#2. PROSHOP GUYS SHOULD BE ABOVE THE NORM IN KNOWLEDGE OF THE EQUIPMENT, AND MANY ARE.
and, finally,
#3 THE LARGE PART OF CONSUMERS ARE "STUPID" AS FAR AS EQUIPMENT IS CONCERNED, AND ONLY KNOW EITHER WHAT THEY SEE, OR WHAT THEY'RE TOLD.
It doesn't matter HOW good a ball might be, if "STUPID" people/consumers see it being thrown as a "SPARE" ball, they are inherently going to figure that is what it is good for. If everyone else is throwing plastic, "STUPID" consumers are left with the impression that the ball will be comparable to that.
While I am no official on the subject, I believe much of the problem has been caused by the industry itsself, by designating some balls as "strike" balls, and some balls as "spare" balls, which gave "STUPID" consumers the impression that those were the only things you could use those particular balls for.
This is likely the reason many of the younger bowlers here were amazed that I actually shot 749 with my plastic ball last month. Even after I had done that, I had one of them tell me "Just imagine what you would've shot if you had used a "real" ball". All I could do was just shake my head and walk away....................
Post by: Curt_Dupre on March 30, 2012, 01:12:43 AM
JLS did you watch bowling this past weekend? I believe Norm was throwing his strike ball as a spare ball. Isn't he a Storm/Roto staffer? Once again it doesn't matter what the hell they throw at spares, as long as they spare. You completely missed my point, when I said it is a proshop's job to let the customer understand bowling equipment. I am not a 220 bowler. But you are just way too smart for me. I am going to leave with a few remarks for you JLS. If you didn't have anything bad to say about the 811A, then why everytime someone asks a question about the ball you bring up Fagan throwing it as a spare ball? This is the second thread you have done this by the way. Have you even thrown the 811A?....probably not. So how in the hell do you know how the ball rolls. Not only do I have 4 of them, I have drilled about 20-25 for my customers with a lot of good feedback from them about the ball. I would really love to know your name and what proshop you work for. Sorry for all of the thread hijacking. Once again if anyone needs any help with any Track ball, or any of the other Ebonite brands feel free to ask me.
Trackbowling.com
Mccorveysproshop.com
Track Regional Staff
Post by: jls on March 30, 2012, 11:45:56 AM
Jag, nice post...
jls
Post by: jls on March 30, 2012, 11:50:49 AM
The point you will never understand is...Marketing...
Try reading Jag's post...He clearly UNDERSTANDS MARKETING...
Now Curt, you are a waste of my time...
I'm trying to help the sales of the 811A...By pointing out that using said ball as a spare ball sends
the wrong message to consumers...
Not everyone is a Staffer or a pro or a Mr 220 ...
If ball companies had to rely on them for sales...They would all be out of business...For they
make up a small percentage of people buying HP balls....
Maybe someday you will learn about marketing...
Until then, you are nothing but a bias staffer...
have a nice day
jls
Post by: jls on March 30, 2012, 12:20:57 PM
Here is another prime example of someone who has zero reading skills...I said over and over,
"even my wife can use her strike ball to pick up the 10 pin" So it's really not a big deal...Heck
even my 9 year old granddaughter can...
So your rude crude remark..."know nothings" only goes to show how ignorant you are...
You like willie have NO MARKETING SKILLS...I seriously doubt Ebonite thinks that the
majority of bowlers who buy their products are "know nothings" just because they average
under 200...
Most golfers can break 90, actually a 100...YET THEY MARCH INTO STORES LIKE GOLF
GALAXY, GOLFSMITH, DICK'S AND BUY DRIVERS SELLING FOR $299-$399...
So Al, it's not just skilled bowlers like you who buy HP balls...Their are a zillion "know nothings" that
march into pro shops and buy said balls...
And that AL helps keep Ebonite in business...
The point you missed Mr high and Mighty spare shooter, is the point Mr Jag made...
People get the wrong impression when the HYPE says HOOK, ANGULAR, ETC...and they see
said hyped up ball being used a 10 pin ball...
They don't understand the skill level of touring pros...
JUST LIKE YOU AND WILLIE DON'T UNDERSTAND "MARKETING"
Now more than likely, you are at work pounding a keyboard on COMPANY TIME...And you love
to come on these sites and act like JOE PRO BOWLER...
And then people wonder why so many companies outsource their work overseas...
Sales of the 811A were good in Dec...have slipped since...and IMO, seeing it used as a 10 pin
ball will not help bring back sales...
Curt love to throw up the fact that Duke may not always use plastic...
Wow, that's what....doing the math...2 bowlers...When I watch the telecast I see the MAJORITY
of the pros using plastic....
And my customers do seem to remember Weber using his Frantic as a strike ball to win the US OPEN...
But I think I missed where Fagan won using the 811A as a 10 pin ball...
jls
Post by: Juggernaut on March 30, 2012, 02:23:09 PM
THIS POST IS ONLY TO REFLECT MY OWN THOUGHTS AND OPINIONS ON THE SUBJECT:
Things like this are the very reason I think the PBA HAD to make the Mark Roth PLASTIC ball tournament go away. When you have top professionals throwing plastic "SPARE" balls, and averaaging in the 230's/240's and more, what impression do you think that gave the "STUPID" consumers?
Think it might've shown millions of amatuer bowlers that you don't NEED all those super high performance balls to score well with?
Think that might RUIN the manufacturers marketing plans? Think sales of all these "CRUTCH" balls might've suffered? Think that might mean people would begin to wake up and smell the coffee of truth?
Couldn't let THAT happen, now could they?
And THAT, I believe, is why the plastic ball tournament HAD to die, because the manufacturers DEMANDED it, and the PBA complied.
Like I said, "STUPID" consumers only know what they hear, or SEE, and they WILL NOT be allowed to see this happen again.
Post by: Dave-bestbowlingproshops on March 30, 2012, 07:23:57 PM
Wow....this is an interesting post.
Well first off JLS I understand what you mean about the 811A. I discussed this with our brand manager and expressed my concerns with it. I know they can throw whatever they want at spares and knock'em down 99.9999999% of the time. But the few...and boy do I mean few...of my customers that watch the PBA are misled. "Does it really go that straight?" is what I've been asked. But at my shop there's a huge amount of trust from my customers and I'm nothing but honest. I tell them its angular for MOST but is extremely clean through the fronts. Now for me the 811A has sold extremely well...just my location alone sold close to 30 BEFORE it was released. Every single one was happy with it and got what they were looking for. It was smoother for some, very flippy for others.
Now I will admit that I'm not a fan of the finish they come with so 3/4 of them were adjusted. It's super clean down the lane and it does have a good amount of angle. I'm also going to agree with Curt...you have in several of you're posts you stated that the 811A is not the angular piece it claims to be and I will somewhat disagree. I've noticed much more change of direction with it depending on the players tilt. I'm not trying to educate you just telling you what I see. I agree the way the ball was presented on tv wasn't good imo either....I feel as a staffer we should do our best to represent what the ball is intended to do. If it doesn't it will fade away as many have but I don't see why Mr Fagan can't just throw a 100P to show it off.
www.bestbowlingproshops.com
Track Staff
Turbo Staff
Post by: jls on March 31, 2012, 10:44:02 AM
Dave, thank you for your post...I will assume unlike Curt, you were around for the "extremely angular"
715A, followed by the 718A...And lets not forget about the 920A...
Now I don't recall knocking the performance of the 811A...I do feel that when compared to other
HP balls on the market, the 811A is not as angular...Doesn't mean that it's not the most angular in
Track's line...
I am glad you have seen first hand how negative the consumer can be when seeing said ball being
used as a 10 pin ball...And I'm glad that you feel that this does nothing to help with the image
or sales of said ball...
It CLEARLY shows you understand the importance of marketing...
Curt claims he wasn't around for the famous 715A.."extremely angular"...But WE were and saw
first hand what the consumer felt about said balls...Even though just about all reviews by
staffer's were great.....
Now I have said over and over again, that I feel the 811A is a good piece of equipment when
USED ON THE RIGHT CONDITION...
However IMO I would stop short of calling it extremely angular... Strong hard arc maybe...
Thank you again for your post...
jls
Post by: DeadWood Pro Shop on April 01, 2012, 04:47:15 AM
The 508a is indeed a modified version of the legion core in the 607a se. Track didn't realize that the core would change the reaction of this ball as much as it did. For higher rev guys, the 508 seems to have more pickup in the mid lane. And the skid flip nature of the 505a cover makes that ball turn the corner and keeps on going. I love this ball bc I believe that for a house shot it and the elevate are the best bang for your buck.
The 811a se on the other hand is one of the most unique balls on the market. It has a lower intermediate differential than the 718a that came before it. I can't say for sure, but I believe that the 811 was intended to replace the 718 ands the angular hook monster this year. The symmetric nature of the core that was modified to become asymmetrical is ULTRA clean through the front part of the lane and for higher rev guys the ball turns sideways when it is good and ready. For lower rev guys the ball tends to have a smoother roll to the pocket.
Both of these balls are great, and I have been averaging 228 using these two balls in tandem since their release. The consensus from my customers is that the 508 has more of a typical roll, and has more mid lane. Where on the other side, the 811 is so clean through the heads that when the line you are playing is burning up in the heads, you can move and get the 811 right (or for lefties- left) and the ball will turn and hit with more energy from a deeper line. This includes a lefty in my surveying of the Track line up.
I hope this helps, I'm not a staff member or anything, but I do feel that Track is one of the most under rated Brands in my area and carry the best when I'm rolling one of them. If you'd like to see a video of the 508a check out our shop Facebook page for a link to the video.
DeadWood Pro Shop
9307 Boone Road
Houston, TX 77099
http://www.facebook.com/DeadWoodproshop
Post by: DeadWood Pro Shop on April 01, 2012, 04:49:04 AM
Ps. The legion 2 turbo core is completely unique from the legion core.
DeadWood Pro Shop
9307 Boone Road
Houston, TX 77099
http://www.facebook.com/DeadWoodproshop
Post by: LuckyLefty on April 01, 2012, 08:33:37 AM
Deadwood,
Thanks,,,this has turned into the most unique of posts and sets of answers. I appreciate your answer to my original question.
By the way I saw the track 715T as something very powerful, and smooth but with an angular move at the breakpoint. My son has one designed to replace his Virtual Gravity but we found it to be a little stronger thoughout the lane but a little less reactive off the spot!
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS I'm going to a demoday soon....hopefully able to throw some of the above discussed!
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Post by: DeadWood Pro Shop on April 01, 2012, 03:20:22 PM
DeadWood Pro Shop
9307 Boone Road
Houston, TX 77099
http://www.facebook.com/DeadWoodproshop
Post by: pbaexp12 on April 01, 2012, 05:23:20 PM
The 811a se is the improved version of the 607a se. The 8 has a modified legion core that looks nothing like the original legion core. It goes longer and turns a lot harder and more responsive to friction. the 508a has the same core as the 6 but a weaker cover and finish. Btm ratings on total hook is 5 47, 6 48, 9 50.
you can email me at gr8_bwler@yahoo.com
My email address has no space the space is the underscore key...
1st 300 shot with ARCH RIVAL yes!!
2nd 300 with WILD THING!!
3rd 300 game shot with JIGSAW TRAP!!
4th 300 with storm fast!