Author Topic: Pin UP vs Pin DOWN Rising....questions answered (Read 1618 times)

C-G ProShop-Carl · « **on:** January 10, 2008, 01:41:47 PM »

http://www.trackbowling.com/news/rising_mass_bias.php

Take a look here folks, hopefully it will answer questions from a previous thread.

-Carl
--------------------
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Bar5003 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 11, 2008, 04:03:57 AM »

Hmmm that video looks familiar

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Mark T. Trgovac · « **Reply #2 on:** January 11, 2008, 09:23:17 AM »

I understood what u were saying. However you can't only move the pin up without moving the mb, and still keep it the same distance from the PAP, unless you change the degree it is kicked out at. That is all I was trying to say.
--------------------
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Mark T. Trgovac · « **Reply #3 on:** January 13, 2008, 01:46:35 PM »

quote:
The distance of the primary pin and the degree of the PSA location is independant of each other. You can move the pin to PAP distance and have the PSA degree stay the same or visa versa. There is no set pairings of pin distances and PSA degrees. The appearance will change but that is it. You can have 5" pin to PAP and a 50 degree PSA or a 3" pin to PAP and a 50 degree, etc.
--------------------
Ric Hamlin
Pacific Northwest Product Specialist
Brunswick Bowling

'That Ric guy'

What I am saying is that if you move the pin up and keep the same degree for the mb the distnce of the mb to pap will lessen (given you are not super inverted). So to keep the Mb the same distance from pap when you pull the pin up you must chane the degree the Mb is kicked out at.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
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Youngstown, Ohio

Finishing THS book ave: 200
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Mark T. Trgovac · « **Reply #4 on:** January 14, 2008, 10:35:38 AM »

quote:
What you are missing is that the PSA is based upon degrees, not an actual distance.
--------------------
Ric Hamlin
Pacific Northwest Product Specialist
Brunswick Bowling

'That Ric guy'

What I am saying is that if you move the pin up. Keep the same degree that the MB is kicked out at. You change the MB to PAP distance. The closer to the PAP you take it to the PAP the smoother the reaction off the breakpoint will be. So to place the pin up and keep the same MB to PAP distance you have to change the degree the MB is kicked. By not doing so you could take the MB and by moving it up when you moved the pin you could change the MB to PAP distance from say 5" to 4-3". The move of an inch or move closer to your PAP can really change the reaction off the break. So to keep the MB again lets say at 5" from PAP after the move up you will need to pull the MB degree back under the 45 degree kick.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio

Finishing THS book ave: 200
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strikealot · « **Reply #5 on:** January 14, 2008, 10:51:04 AM »

what i get out of this is that mb to pap distance doesnt matter...its pin to pap and degree that matters...as long as you move the pin to pap distances and dont change the degree, it doesnt matter if the mb moves distances to pap...
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Mark T. Trgovac · « **Reply #6 on:** January 14, 2008, 11:08:12 AM »

quote:
Scoot

To not continue with this argument, let's go with this, you keep doing it the way you do and I'll do it the way I have.
--------------------
Ric Hamlin
Pacific Northwest Product Specialist
Brunswick Bowling

'That Ric guy'

Edited on 1/14/2008 11:42 AM

We can not continue this discussion. However I find it odd that you are almost saying that you dont consider MB to PAP distance important.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio

Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194

Track HITMAN.

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Mark T. Trgovac · « **Reply #7 on:** January 14, 2008, 11:56:39 AM »

Even with the MB or PSA being placed at a degree, you will always have a distance from the MB or PSA to the PAP. That number in itself can cause a different reaction on the lane at the break.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio

Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194

Track HITMAN.

Tag Team Coaching Success Story.

When faced with a problem Chuck Norris asks himself, "What would The Scoot DO?"

Curt_Dupre · « **Reply #8 on:** January 14, 2008, 01:32:49 PM »

Scoot as far as I know the closer the mass bias is to your VAL the smoother the reaction is. So if you have a pin down ball with mass bias at 45 degrees it will have the MB closer to the VAL which will cause the break point to be smoother. If you move the pin up and put the MB at 45 degrees it will cause it to have a stronger breakpoint. When you see drill sheets you will see that with a pin down layout out the ball will start hooking in the mid lane and have a descent move on the backend. With the pin up it will cause the ball to get down further and make a stronger move on the backend. Also the video of both of the risings proved it. The pin down layout can handle more oil which is why you can play deeper, but the pin up layout allowed for more backend which is why you had to play pretty straight with it. I have never seen anyone really drill a ball in regards with the MB to PAP. Degrees is very important.

Edited on 1/14/2008 2:35 PM

Re-Evolution · « **Reply #9 on:** January 15, 2008, 10:34:59 PM »

Scoot you have to realize this.
When laying out a ball this is the order that influences the characteristics:
Cover, Core/Pin position, MB/PSA position.
I think what Ric is trying to get across is that the characteristics of the MB/PSA are relative to the Pin location. In other words the ball will respond to the pin position first, after the pin position has had it's influence the MB/PSA can begin to shape the reaction. No matter how strong or weak your drill the ball the pin position will always influence the shape before the MB/PSA.
Cover = oil handling
Pin = When energy begins to deplete/when the ball begins to flare
MB/PSA = How fast energy is depleted after the ball begins to flare or after friction is encountered

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Author Topic: Pin UP vs Pin DOWN Rising....questions answered (Read 1618 times)

C-G ProShop-Carl

Pin UP vs Pin DOWN Rising....questions answered

Bar5003

Re: Pin UP vs Pin DOWN Rising....questions answered

Mark T. Trgovac

Re: Pin UP vs Pin DOWN Rising....questions answered

Mark T. Trgovac

Re: Pin UP vs Pin DOWN Rising....questions answered

Mark T. Trgovac

Re: Pin UP vs Pin DOWN Rising....questions answered

strikealot

Re: Pin UP vs Pin DOWN Rising....questions answered

Mark T. Trgovac

Re: Pin UP vs Pin DOWN Rising....questions answered

Mark T. Trgovac

Re: Pin UP vs Pin DOWN Rising....questions answered

Curt_Dupre

Re: Pin UP vs Pin DOWN Rising....questions answered

Re-Evolution

Re: Pin UP vs Pin DOWN Rising....questions answered