Post by: Rockbowler on March 07, 2004, 11:38:37 PM
Post by: Jeffrevs on March 08, 2004, 02:42:46 PM
I have a Hercules where the pin is at my ring finger, the mb is down below and to the right of my thumb, and if I draw a line to the cg then to the pin it forms a triangle !
Don't worry, should be fine..........
--------------------
JEFF
Quit muscling it at the bottom of your swing...bonehead!
Post by: Rockbowler on March 08, 2004, 03:13:37 PM
Post by: Rockbowler on March 08, 2004, 04:53:02 PM
Post by: Rockbowler on March 08, 2004, 05:26:13 PM
Yes, I have a weight hole on my PAP. Thanks for your quick replies.
Post by: Jeffrevs on March 08, 2004, 05:39:22 PM
Oh...King..you out there ?
--------------------
JEFF
Quit muscling it at the bottom of your swing...bonehead!
Post by: BackToBasics on March 08, 2004, 10:31:03 PM
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on March 08, 2004, 10:53:56 PM
I agree totally with Jeff and some of the others. My Animal has the CG kicked way over near my PAP in order to get the MB on my VAL. CG has no meaning on reaction of those balls. Infact, I had a Phenom that had the Cg kicked way over like this as well because of them being offset, and I only had to remove 3/4 of an ounce of side weight from the ball. SO, do not worry about it, the ball will still work fine for you.
GOODLUCK
--EX--
Post by: Rockbowler on March 08, 2004, 11:28:42 PM
1) Pin - under the ring finger about 5 inches from PAP
2) MB - about an inch below and 1/2 inch to the right of the thumb. I would say 5-5 1/2" from PAP.
Thanks!
Post by: Rockbowler on March 08, 2004, 11:44:50 PM
Post by: Rockbowler on March 09, 2004, 12:11:41 AM
quote:
to elaborate a little more.....
regarding your original Q?.... it is not a defective ball. track product, if caught in the assembly process, with cg's more than 1 1/2" off the line between the pin and mass bias will be pulled as a blem, but roll just as well as other product.
I have a blem then, the CG is about 1 3/4" off the line between the pin and MB. I will talk to my pro shop and ask him to return it. Thanks again.
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on March 09, 2004, 12:24:01 AM
Track has been awesome at detecting blems in their line. If that ball was a blem it would not have made it out of their wharehouse without being stamped a blem.
Once again, not that king of the mill is wrong, but usually a company knows its products best.
Post by: tenpinspro on March 09, 2004, 01:47:35 AM
Sorry, just closed shop. I honestly feel this is not a blem or defective, all Track balls are advertised to be precisely pre-spun from factory to ensure proper placement and marking of the mass bias. I personally have an Unleashed where the pin is under the bridge, cg right about 1/4 inch(in palm) and the mass bias is all the way over in my val line already and THIS is the ball I shot 300 with. I laid it out accordingly, from simply where the markings were and I'm getting exactly the reaction expected. I don't believe you have anything to worry about, just make sure you drill the ball according to the markings of Pin and MB.
Based on what you stated, your ball is drilled to go somewhat long
(mb by thumb). As Excaliber, Chapman, and myself have mentioned quite a few times.....PLS becareful with the mass bias positioning. It is extremely important and crucial to creating the desired reaction in Track asym. cores.
I realize it looks different but it's simply another version of imbalance(maybe the weightblock shifted a little while settling, not sure). When Fab first messed up and ended up with a pin out ball(hammer), they thought it was a blem. Everything back then was supposed to be in the grip center, pin and cg. They didn't even know at first what they stumbled upon and were about to create. I'd rather see a marking off then just stamped there and not really be in the right spot because then you wouldn't get the proper reaction. The only down turn to these balls I've come across is that I have to watch static weights as they can shift in directions that I don't want for a customer. Hope this helps Rock but feel free to contact me directly and I'll be more then happy to help you.
Edit: I'm supposed to meet with Mark Baker tomorrow, I'll ask him too.
--------------------
Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Pro Shop Staff
Vise Grip Staff
Edited on 3/9/2004 3:19 AM
Post by: Rockbowler on March 09, 2004, 10:28:24 AM
Post by: Rockbowler on March 09, 2004, 11:21:45 AM
Post by: tenpinspro on March 09, 2004, 11:46:01 AM
Of course, try what Bill recommended but I still feel like some of the others that this pattern is not strong enough to help pull you up in heavy oil. I have about the same revs you do and I kicked my mb out past val and took it down to 1000 just to ensure it would roll up and it responds nicely. If Bill's suggestion still isn't enough, try plugging and redrilling it. You should see a much stronger reaction, thanks.
--------------------
Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Pro Shop Staff
Vise Grip Staff
Post by: Rockbowler on March 09, 2004, 12:03:26 PM
My point was Track was advertising the Animal to be stronger than the Unleashed and so I drilled the Animal 1/2" longer Pin and MB. But I am getting inconsistent results. In heavy oil, my Unleashed has a strong midlane roll and arcs to the pocket. In league, if there is still head oil, I can play a little swing out and the Unleashed works. So I have a great ball in the Unleashed. My Animal in either condition is inconsistent. I know some people like plugging and re-drilling balls but I have had poor results with it. For me, the plugged ball was not the same, hit-wise etc. I try to avoid this so I try to research diligently and tell my pro-shop the layout and my expectations. I have not had many failed expectation with Track balls but this one. I am hopeful that Bill's suggestion will work but if it does not, then all I can conclude is I got a very rare Track blem. Thanks!
Post by: Ishmael on March 09, 2004, 12:20:10 PM
quote:
then all I can conclude is I got a very rare Track blem.
Rock, you need to get this idea out of your head. The ball is not a blem (defective as you called it) because of the cg and mb being off line. Drilled properly, the ball will perform just as well as a ball with the cg and mb in line. The reason that these balls are often sold as blems is because they are not as driller friendly. Sometimes your layout options can be limited just like they can be with pin in or very long pin out balls. I think what you have here is a bad match up of bowler, ball, and drill pattern.
Also, plugged balls will perform equally as well as first drilled balls. If the weighthole experiment doesn't work out, don't be afraid to plug it.
Post by: tenpinspro on March 09, 2004, 12:37:59 PM
Sorry to hear about the replugging deal for you, strange. Most balls I've plugged once or twice (and I've plugged a lot) have been fine. Just curious, why would you want to take a stronger ball and drill it weaker? That would be backing down the stronger ball to what the original ball is in comparison, wouldn't it? Then you'd end up with 2 balls that did almost the same thing? Or did you want just a little more....just curious.
--------------------
Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Pro Shop Staff
Vise Grip Staff
Post by: Rockbowler on March 09, 2004, 12:44:49 PM
I want versatile balls and I do not want to max out the drill as I have relatively low to medium speed. I have a friend who has his Unleashed with the pin under CG and MB near the VAL and he sends the ball from 17 to 5 and the ball gets into third gear and comes back hard to the pocket. This is not the reaction that I want and that is why I drilled the balls the way I did. I would like versatility and power. I have a true oil balls in the Scorcher and Super Carbide Bomb and I wanted the Animal and Unleashed to give me the versatility in medium to heavy oil and wet/dry conditions in league. Hope this answers your question. Thanks!
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on March 09, 2004, 01:41:35 PM
The weighthole may help, but the placement of the MB is much more crucial to the reaction of these balls than any other aspect. Pin placement is important, but if the MB is placed in an area that gets too much length, then the ball will simply go too long and even become "squirty" at times.
What I find in the first Animal I drilled, PIN under ring finger and MB on my VAL (box surface), is that the ball is a controll ball for me. It rolls up early enough in oil (more than my unleashed with the identical drill pattern) and on dry it still gets enough length that I can use it on mediums. If you want more controll, and without looking back at all of the previos posts, try sanding the ball to 800 grit AGAINST your track, this will make the ball much less squirty.
Placing the pin 5 inches from PAP does not really make the Animal even out with the Unleashed. Placing the pin there is cutting down flare potential thus the Unleashed is going to flare a little bit more which could cause it to hook more. If the MB on the Unleashed is closer towards your VAL then it is definately going to be slightly stronger.
On the blem thing, it is definately not a blem. I would totally get that out of my head if I were you. The purpose of factory spinning the ball is to mark the MB exactly.
If the surface adjustment does not work, I would say to try to sell the ball before you get alot of games on it and get another one and drill it accordingly. MB placed close to the thumb or left of the thumb is going to give you length, and usually require drier backends to get the strong reaction. Controll and versatility are usually properties of balls that roll well in the midlane and have an even backend reaction.
Goodluck
--EX--
Post by: Rockbowler on March 09, 2004, 02:13:39 PM
quote:
ROCK..
On the blem thing, it is definately not a blem. I would totally get that out of my head if I were you. The purpose of factory spinning the ball is to mark the MB exactly.
If the surface adjustment does not work, I would say to try to sell the ball before you get alot of games on it and get another one and drill it accordingly.
--EX--
It seems like Excaliber and Tenpinspro who both own a proshop want me to forget about the blem thing. I am sorry. All of my Track MB balls have aligned PIN/CG/MB and the only ball that comes with one misalinged by 1 3/4 inches is my Animal. King of the MIll says that the guideline is 1 1/2" for weeding out blems. If it looks like a blem and is inconsistent like a blem, then it is a blem. As I said, I am the one getting the inconsistent results. It is my experience. I am wondering how people can make conclusions out of my experience. Is it not possible that the awesome Quality Control of Track may have missed one ball? I mean perfection is an ideal but nobody is. Also, I am not buying another Animal. I buy the same ball if I like the reaction in the first place and wants another application of the ball or just to reserve one for me just in case the ball is discontinued. Thanks for all your replies.
Edited on 3/9/2004 3:17 PM
Post by: Ishmael on March 09, 2004, 04:10:37 PM
quote:
King of the MIll says that the guideline is 1 1/2" for weeding out blems. If it looks like a blem and is inconsistent like a blem, then it is a blem.
King of the Mill says:
quote:
it is not a defective ball. track product, if caught in the assembly process, with cg's more than 1 1/2" off the line between the pin and mass bias will be pulled as a blem, but roll just as well as other product.
"not a defective ball" and "roll just as well as other product"!!!
Post by: Rockbowler on March 09, 2004, 04:23:30 PM
Post by: BackToBasics on March 09, 2004, 06:11:01 PM
The ball is conistent, versatile and hits well. I'ved used it with surfaces from 800 grit to high polish. So obviously just because the CG was not inline didn't make it a blem. It rolls exactly as I expected given the pin and MB marking. You very well could have a defect (not blem) and if you do, Track will rectify it.
Post by: Rockbowler on March 09, 2004, 11:44:45 PM
quote:
Rock,
True that most of these balls have a CG within 1 1/2 inches off a line drawn between the PIN and Mb. But, I have seen many high performance balls from ALL manufacturers that have been much farther out than that. Personally if I am looking for a ball to rev up quick I'll look for one that the CG is further out to the left than 1 1/2 inches. This will allow me to put the Mb either on or past my VAL and reduce the size of or eliminate the need to use a weight hole. If I choose to drill up an arc type of ball I look for a CG shifted out to the right. I really don't think you can label your Animal a blem because it's shifted a little further.
Precision
If you are saying that you have seen a lot of high performance balls from ALL manufacturers that are misalinged further, then that is your experience. My experience is the opposite. I have not seen any like this. I have shared that all my Track balls with MB are aligned. I also have balls from Ebonite, Storm and Morich with MBs and I have not seem any misaligned CGs. Also, I go back to my question, "Is it not possible that the "awesome" Quality Control of Track missed one ball?" Thanks!
Post by: Rockbowler on March 10, 2004, 12:20:16 AM
quote:
I echo king of the mill when I say that a ball with a mass bias out of line rolls the same (cg doesn't really matter when you've got a MB). It could be, like mentioned by others, that you've come across a ball, drilling, and pattern matchup that just doesn't work well for your style.
--------------------
OK. I agree that this is a possibility but the other possibility is I have a blem or defective ball. Why is it that everybody seems to be on the side of one and not the other? Everyone likes to get on the good side of Track?
Post by: Rockbowler on March 10, 2004, 12:25:58 AM
quote:
You very well could have a defect (not blem) and if you do, Track will rectify it.
Sorry, not everyone. Anthony considers that possibility. Thanks!
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on March 10, 2004, 12:27:28 AM
I guess it is possible for that to happen to you, you may have a defective ball. I doubt it very much, especially since the company rep himself told you that it is not defective. You got a bad drill pattern, one that you chose. Tell you what, i will give you $60 plus shipping for your defective Animal. I want one drilled like that anyhow. And not to mention, if it is as defective as the Animals I currently own, I am sure it will work wonderfully for me.
You chose a bad drill pattern for your game, the lane condition you are throwing it on, and for the reaction that you wanted. As already suggested, you best bet is to take it to a pro shop that has a determinator and have them spin the ball to see if the MB is marked properly. CG is not going to matter, since it has no effect on the reaction of these balls.
Post by: Rockbowler on March 10, 2004, 12:46:11 AM
I can not accept your offer
since I have agreed with Bill Monce that I will make the weight hole bigger, bring the side weight to zero and bring the surface to 1500 grit. If this still does not work, then everybody can say what they want about their experiences but my experience with this one ball is it is incosistent. I hope that it works. I like Lane 1 balls and now I know what Lane 1 bashers feel everytime they criticize Lane 1. This time it is the Track defenders ganging up on me.
Post by: Ishmael on March 10, 2004, 08:06:35 AM
quote:
This time it is the Track defenders ganging up on me.
Time out. I am not a Track defender. In fact, I don't currently own a Track ball. The point that I'm trying to get across is that the misalignment of the cg and mb does not make the ball defective, and that the term "blem" does not mean defective. As someone else stated, blem typically means "out of the ordinary" or "different from the normal specifications".
Again, you may have a bad ball (for reasons other than the misalignment of the cg and mb), but more than likely you simply have a ball and drill pattern that do not work for you.
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on March 10, 2004, 01:22:24 PM
Post by: Rockbowler on March 10, 2004, 02:21:38 PM
quote:
He said I should believe him that it is not a blem and I should just drill a bigger weight hole. I said I have tried this before on another ball but it did not work.(Also, I hate to disagree with king of the mill but a blem is defective). By now he seems to be agitated and he is raising his voice. I asked why is he getting upset and he said because I choose to believe fricking (his words) ballreviews.com (since I said I learned from the site that a misalignment of 1 1/2" is a blem).
EX,
I know you added a tongue icon to your comments but just in case you are really asking why Chuck got frustrated, I included my comments on my conversation with him. It seems that this guy's heart is not in Customer Service. He does not listen to what I am saying but just wants me to accept what he says. It is not a two-way conversation with him. I had a message on my cell phone from him this morning but I did not call him anymore. I do not relish being yelled at by company representatives. And I do not know if you are insinuating something but I did not do anything to provoke his disrespectful response. Thanks for all those who helped even the avid defenders of Track.
Thanks also to Bill Monce who was very helpful and courteous.
Post by: tenpinspro on March 10, 2004, 03:27:44 PM
I've just put in a few requests to my technical contacts from other companies in regards to their definition of blems. Assuming King of the Mill is correct, I can't see this many balls getting out from the VARIOUS manufacturers that look like this without being marked as a blem. I've drilled quite a few balls where the misalignment was greater then 1 1/2.
As stated before Rock, this isn't about being a Track defender for me. If a ball was truly defective from ANY manufacturer, I immediately would replace it for my customer and my contacts have been great in doing so. My issue is whether or not these are actual blems or perhaps their measurements and standards have deviated from the original 1 1/2 inch theory. I'll keep you guys posted, thanks.
--------------------
Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Pro Shop Staff
Vise Grip Staff
Post by: Mustang Guy on March 10, 2004, 05:43:03 PM
IN RG BALLS, if you come across a ball where when looking at the PIN and CG that are in line and the MB is kicked right or left any where from 1-2 + inches out, this is not necessarily a BLEM. In manufacturing you do not see these balls that often, maybe less than 5% come out that way. What happens is when making a large run of bowling balls the weight block sit on an axis and it gets tipped to pull the cg away from the pin (creating a pin out and aligning the MB). Sometimes (talking about that less than 5%) the weight block slightly turns and that is why you see those MB markings left or right of the pin and cg. This pertains only to early asymmetrical designs, (assault & fuel). OUR newer asymmetrical designs like the Apocalypse & Pure Fuel are much stronger asymmetrically and the pin, cg and MB all line up. The balls that have the MB kicked left or right can be tricky when it comes to drilling them. Some of these balls work better for left handers and some better for right handers. Sometimes they can be a pain to drill and other times you can do certain drill patterns with these that you couldn't normally do when everything lined up. Either way I hope this helped some what and my intentions weren't to comment on any layouts or anything just explain that these aren't blems just because the MB is left or right and not in line with the Pin and CG.
Thanks,
--------------------
Roger Noordhoek
Technical & Customer
Services Manager
Roto Grip, Inc.
888-450-6920
RogerN@rotogrip.com
www.rotogrip.com
For all your Roto Grip Logo Merchandise please visit www.rotogear.com
Post by: Mustang Guy on March 10, 2004, 05:50:03 PM
I thought I was asked to come here to explain why a MB gets shifted left or right. I will come back later to check to see if there are any more questions.
Thanks,
--------------------
Roger Noordhoek
Technical & Customer
Services Manager
Roto Grip, Inc.
888-450-6920
RogerN@rotogrip.com
www.rotogrip.com
For all your Roto Grip Logo Merchandise please visit www.rotogear.com
Post by: Rockbowler on March 10, 2004, 06:04:03 PM
quote:.
OUR newer asymmetrical designs like the Apocalypse & Pure Fuel are much stronger asymmetrically and the pin, cg and MB all line up. The balls that have the MB kicked left or right can be tricky when it comes to drilling them. Some of these balls work better for left handers and some better for right handers. Sometimes they can be a pain to drill and other times you can do certain drill patterns with these that you couldn't normally do when everything lined up.
Thanks for chiming in, ROger. When you said that the misaligned balls are triccky to drill, did you mean in terms of achieving the correct static weights? Or did you mean that this "trickiness" may result in inconsistent results if the driller is not knowledgeable enough? Shouldn't there be a disclaimer or some kind of special drilling instructions for these balls so the bowlers who happen to purchase these balls know exactly what to expect? Thanks again!
Post by: tenpinspro on March 11, 2004, 06:28:26 AM
--------------------
Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Pro Shop Staff
Vise Grip Staff
Post by: tenpinspro on March 14, 2004, 08:36:39 AM
This was the response received from Track and this is their position concerning this discussion about cg's being more than 1.5 inches out of alignment from a line drawn from pin thru mass bias.
Quote:
Those balls are not blems. Cg placement on strong asymmetric balls has no bearing on ball reaction. Thanks for the email.
Bill Monce
Director of Sales
Track International
End Quote
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hopefully Rock, this will make you feel more at ease about your ball and that you did not receive a blem, thanks.
--------------------
Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Pro Shop Staff
Vise Grip Staff
Post by: Strider on March 14, 2004, 10:50:09 PM
If you put the pin over the ring finger and the MB is stacked below (assume 3-4 oz top)...
CG in line, maybe a small to medium weight hole
CG left 1.5", no weight hole needed
CG right 1.5" = monster weighthole
They can't all roll the same.
--------------------
Penn State Proud
Post by: tenpinspro on March 15, 2004, 12:13:52 AM
I believe Bill's intentions were that if the static weights can be drilled within ABC limits w or w/o a weight hole, your main 2 key elements to ball reaction are still the pin and mass bias, that's all. As mentioned by a few of us before that some of these balls can be a pain to drill. However, I didn't think of the concept of left or right handed balls as Roger stated. That hasn't happened since Roto used to make built in side weight in balls for right handed and left handed bowlers back in the 70's. Thanks for catching that though..
--------------------
Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Pro Shop Staff
Vise Grip Staff