Post by: DukeHarding on November 20, 2007, 03:17:00 PM
This is the layout (http://"http://homepage.mac.com/dukeharding/.Pictures/Balls/1893ARisingLO.jpg")
Label Specs.... (http://"http://homepage.mac.com/dukeharding/.Pictures/Balls/1893ABoxLabel.JPG")
Question: with a starting TW of 2 oz...Why would the wt. hole be as big as it is drilled? also fingerhole depths? Wouldn't be for legal static weights?
I'm plugging the thumb and lengthening the span (1.2"). \Keeping the other bowlers layout.
He is a lower track stroker, and did not like the ball reaction at all.
My PAP is 5-3/8, 1/4" up...
Any ideas?
TIA,
--------------------
Duke Harding
Bowling Balls For Sale... (http://"http://www.dukeharding.com")
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on November 21, 2007, 01:05:11 AM
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: T-GOD on November 21, 2007, 08:20:01 AM
Maybe the guy has a lot of side rotation, becasue that's what'll be needed for this ball to have a strong backend reaction. This ball should roll really smooth, with a soft backend motion if not rollout. =:^D
Post by: DukeHarding on November 21, 2007, 09:00:13 AM
quote:
With those ball specs and the way it's drilled, the ball will have negative side and bottom weight. This will really tame the ball down on the back end.
Maybe the guy has a lot of side rotation, becasue that's what'll be needed for this ball to have a strong backend reaction. This ball should roll really smooth, with a soft backend motion if not rollout. =:^D
His track is about 3" from the thumb&finger holes.
He said the ball hit like poop, sounded flat when it hit the pins.
I think I'm going to plug the ball totally and start from scratch...I want to give the ball a fair chance...so I should start out with a ball laid out to my pap.
--------------------
Duke Harding
Bowling Balls For Sale... (http://"http://www.dukeharding.com")
Post by: jls on November 21, 2007, 09:56:24 AM
and more then likely, you won't need that big of a weight hole.
did you have the ball weighed?
does it have neg s.w. on it now?
good luck
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jls, proud watcher of womens golf
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on November 21, 2007, 10:15:07 AM
quote:
First of all, any weight hole will alter the dynamic properties of a drilled ball. This is fact! That being said it must be understood that the larger the hole and greater mass removed, the greater effect will be had.
Why this ball has this hole in this location is unknown. If you know the person who owned the ball you might want to ask them. One thing I would be curious of though is what are the current static weights. While Ebonite is extremely good at manufacturing (probably the industry leader right now) there is always the possibility the label was incorrect.
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Precision
The statement I used was from Ron that he stated at the local Seminar on the Risning. The normal thoughts of cores and weight removed is not normal when you deal with a ball that has a core that is over 7lbs. The signifigance that any weight hole under the 1 1/4" and 3" on the rising, has the same affect on ball motion as the placement of a Asymetrical ball with a Int-Diff of .004. The affect is not even able to be seen or noticed when it comes to ball performance. If it wasnt for the USBC rule the cg would not have been marked on this ball. That is how little the cg and static weights and the changing of the static weights mean for this ball.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: DukeHarding on November 21, 2007, 10:47:55 AM
quote:
The statement I used was from Ron that he stated at the local Seminar on the Risning. The normal thoughts of cores and weight removed is not normal when you deal with a ball that has a core that is over 7lbs. The signifigance that any weight hole under the 1 1/4" and 3" on the rising, has the same affect on ball motion as the placement of a Asymetrical ball with a Int-Diff of .004. The affect is not even able to be seen or noticed when it comes to ball performance. If it wasnt for the USBC rule the cg would not have been marked on this ball. That is how little the cg and static weights and the changing of the static weights mean for this ball.
I was scratching my head about your statement:
"The only way a weight hole will change reaction is to have it be 1 1/4" and 3" deep." . . .
So it refers ONLY to THIS particular ball because of the large corse size, and diff?
--------------------
Duke Harding
Bowling Balls For Sale... (http://"http://www.dukeharding.com")
Post by: DukeHarding on November 21, 2007, 10:55:25 AM
quote:
i would plug the thumb and fingers and weight hole and start fresh using your own specs:
and more then likely, you won't need that big of a weight hole.
did you have the ball weighed?
does it have neg s.w. on it now?
good luck
--------------------
jls, proud watcher of womens golf
I just picked the balls up last Thursday.
I don't have a scale.
I'll have my driller (Anthony Marino), weigh it before he plugs it.
--------------------
Duke Harding
Bowling Balls For Sale... (http://"http://www.dukeharding.com")
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on November 21, 2007, 11:31:47 AM
quote:quote:
The statement I used was from Ron that he stated at the local Seminar on the Risning. The normal thoughts of cores and weight removed is not normal when you deal with a ball that has a core that is over 7lbs. The signifigance that any weight hole under the 1 1/4" and 3" on the rising, has the same affect on ball motion as the placement of a Asymetrical ball with a Int-Diff of .004. The affect is not even able to be seen or noticed when it comes to ball performance. If it wasnt for the USBC rule the cg would not have been marked on this ball. That is how little the cg and static weights and the changing of the static weights mean for this ball.
I was scratching my head about your statement:
"The only way a weight hole will change reaction is to have it be 1 1/4" and 3" deep." . . .
So it refers ONLY to THIS particular ball because of the large corse size, and diff?
--------------------
Duke Harding
Bowling Balls For Sale... (http://"http://www.dukeharding.com")
Yes the weight hole size and depth I speak of is only for the rising, and more then likly any other ball on the market with a 7lb+ core. I can think of one other ball this may be true with.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: tenpinspro on November 21, 2007, 12:57:07 PM
quote:
Question: with a starting TW of 2 oz...Why would the wt. hole be as big as it is drilled?
Hey Duke,
On an educated guess, if he drilled the fingers first and went 2.5 in depth, he actually created more thumb weight then needed. After weighing it out, he realized he had too much thumb so he had to drill a correction hole that big and deep to fix his primary error. There is also the possibility that cg is not marked correctly but for all the ones I've drilled, they've been fine.
I pm'd you with a suggestion regarding layout, thanks.
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl - Tech Support
Vise Inserts Staff
Dexter Advisory Staff
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
Post by: DukeHarding on November 21, 2007, 01:48:55 PM
quote:quote:
Question: with a starting TW of 2 oz...Why would the wt. hole be as big as it is drilled?
Hey Duke,
On an educated guess, if he drilled the fingers first and went 2.5 in depth, he actually created more thumb weight then needed. After weighing it out, he realized he had too much thumb so he had to drill a correction hole that big and deep to fix his primary error. There is also the possibility that cg is not marked correctly but for all the ones I've drilled, they've been fine.
I pm'd you with a suggestion regarding layout, thanks.
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl - Tech Support
Vise Inserts Staff
Dexter Advisory Staff
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
Rick,
Thanks for the PM.
Good hearing from you again.
I've received a lot of balls from this bowler...he seems to favor a low pin layout w/cg kicked out, and normally a wt. hole.
Some of the balls had the 1st flare ring on the middle finger about 1/8"-1/4".
Didn't seem to affect the ball roll or finish much.
I'll have my driller take a look at the ball...if you don't mind, I could have himcontact you.
--------------------
Duke Harding
Bowling Balls in my eBay Store... (http://"http://www.dukeharding.com")
Post by: tenpinspro on November 21, 2007, 02:11:19 PM
quote:
Rick,
Thanks for the PM.
Good hearing from you again.
I've received a lot of balls from this bowler...he seems to favor a low pin layout w/cg kicked out, and normally a wt. hole.
Some of the balls had the 1st flare ring on the middle finger about 1/8"-1/4".
Didn't seem to affect the ball roll or finish much.
I'll have my driller take a look at the ball...if you don't mind, I could have himcontact you.
--------------------
Duke Harding
Hey Duke,
Please feel free to have your driller call me. I want to make sure the mb is placed accordingly to your pap for your desired reaction shape, thanks.
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl - Tech Support
Vise Inserts Staff
Dexter Advisory Staff
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
Post by: T-GOD on November 21, 2007, 04:04:34 PM
Plug the whole ball and re-drill it with max side and max finger. =:^D
Post by: DukeHarding on November 21, 2007, 04:12:55 PM
quote:
Duke,
Plug the whole ball and re-drill it with max side and max finger. =:^D
I decided to sell the 2 RISINGS...
I'm bowling well with 14#.
Why get my old body confused.
I'll buy a 14# NIB and give it a fair chance.
I'll have to sell off my NIB 15# INERTIAS to pay for it.
I remember g uys coming in and asking (back in the 70s), for MAX SIDE AND FINGER...
So the ball would hook ALOT!
Now people ask for PIN positions, not PIN to PAP...
They see ROBERT SMITH, or TOMMY JONES throw a ball, and notice the PIN position, and want a ball drilled just like that...so the ball will react the same for them!!!
Happy Thanksgiving!
--------------------
Duke Harding
Bowling Balls in my eBay Store... (http://"http://www.dukeharding.com")
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on November 22, 2007, 02:04:16 AM
quote:quote:quote:
First of all, any weight hole will alter the dynamic properties of a drilled ball. This is fact! That being said it must be understood that the larger the hole and greater mass removed, the greater effect will be had.
Why this ball has this hole in this location is unknown. If you know the person who owned the ball you might want to ask them. One thing I would be curious of though is what are the current static weights. While Ebonite is extremely good at manufacturing (probably the industry leader right now) there is always the possibility the label was incorrect.
--------------------
Precision
The statement I used was from Ron that he stated at the local Seminar on the Risning. The normal thoughts of cores and weight removed is not normal when you deal with a ball that has a core that is over 7lbs. The signifigance that any weight hole under the 1 1/4" and 3" on the rising, has the same affect on ball motion as the placement of a Asymetrical ball with a Int-Diff of .004. The affect is not even able to be seen or noticed when it comes to ball performance. If it wasnt for the USBC rule the cg would not have been marked on this ball. That is how little the cg and static weights and the changing of the static weights mean for this ball.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Mark,
You might want to give Ron a call to have him explain the effect of weight holes again so you fully understand. What I'm sure he said is that a smaller hole would not significantly alter this balls PSA (high Rg axis); this does not mean a smaller hole will not alter ball dynamics. The Rising does not re-write the laws of physics. Any hole drilled into a ball will alter that balls mass properties, this is fact.
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Precision
The words I used are that the size of the hole will not show a meassurable reaction difference. The only way you will affect the Rising to see any difference in reaction with a weight hole is to have one with a hole 3" deep and with the use of a 1 1/4" drill bit. The Rising does re-write the laws of bowling balls. Heck for instance I wasnt going to bring this up, but look at the proshop insider. A ball with a core creates contors that you can measure with the use of computers, and data. The contor rings on a "Symetrical" ball are even and round, around the ball starting from the pin all the way around the ball. On an Asymetrical ball, the contors are more of an elipse, and when you start to very the away from the pin and MB they start to get skewed out of the elipse and into more what looks like a drawing of a 2 or 3 year old. The closer you get to the 180 degree mark from the mb the contors get further apart form each other and more odd shaped. On the rising you start with the normal Asymetrical contors yet when you start to get further away they dont go into the un-cany shape like normal Asymetrical balls. The contors start to go back in order much like the Symetrical balls yet still in the elipse shape. So this is one of the reasons the Rising is different and why the MB can be placed anywhere. If all Aysmetrical balls had the same strength of the MB in the marked spot and in the 180 degree spot, they wouldnt do this with there contors. Ebonite shows some of this data in a article writen by Ron in the Pro Shop Insider with Rick and Carl on the cover. They show the Aysmetrical balls controls from a Total NV.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: Moon57 on November 23, 2007, 01:55:16 AM
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Moon
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So many questions, so little time but I'm having fun.
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on November 23, 2007, 02:40:36 AM
quote:
Mark,
I'm sorry you believe this ball re-writes any rules. I hate to tell you but that is just marketing. I am not bashing the ball at all, as a matter of fact I think it is one of the better balls on the market right now. The marketing plan for the ball I have a very different opinion of though.
The contour rings you are referring to are due to the ball being dynamically elliptical. While the Rising is a large mass core with a high intermediate differential it is not the first ball to have elliptical contours and will not be the last. These contours are kind of an Rg map of the core dynamics or as some of us describe represent the ellipse of inertia of the core. By the way we've been Rg mapping cores in this manner for years, just because you've just been exposed to it does not mean it's a new procedure.
If you would like I can provide data for you which will show how the holes we drill into a ball alter the Rg and thus the contours. And when I say holes I mean any hole, any size and any depth. It's just this simple, the bigger and deeper the hole the more mass is removed and the Rg is altered the most. There is nothing magical about a 1.25" hole drilled 3" deep, fact is that it will alter the dynamics more than a smaller hole but that small hole will still change the drilled Rg and thus the on lane characteristics of the ball. This has been proven and documented for many different balls and does follow the rules of physics. Saying that a hole smaller than 1.25" drilled 3" deep does not alter the drilled balls dynamics does not follow the laws of physics, this is clear.
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Precision
I didnt say the Rising was the first ball to have contours, I said it was the only one that is shown to have ones that doesnt have them go completly out of whack when you get to a specific area on the ball. They start to reform about half way though. Much like a symetrical ball does only they are not circle contours they stay in the elipse form.
I also dont think it is marketing with the weight hole statement that was said at the seminar, because if it was a major marketing thing it would be stated with ball layouts to the general public. The statement Ron made was that if you have a ball with specs out of the target specs, say like my rising where the pin is 5". That you dont have to worry about the weight hole altering the reaction of the suggested layout. He stated because to alter the reaction with the weight hole to where it will signifigantly alter the reaction shape of the ball it would have to be a weight hole size of at least 1 1/4" and 3" deep. I find this to be true because aftr I put the weight hole in mine, I lost nothing in reaction from the pre-weight hole reaction. I am not sayig that a weight hole wont alter the dynamics of the ball.
I never said it wouldnt I said that the only way that a weight hole in the rising will alter the reactions of the rising is if the weight hole is at least 1 1/4" and 3" deep. This is what I stated in my first post to this thread, that a weight hole on the rising will only alter reaction if it is a 1 1/4" bit that is 3" deep.
quote:
Mark, how do you put a 1 1/4" hole in the ball with no chamfer, since USBC says the hole can't be bigger than 1 1/4" including chamfer, without voiding the warranty on the ball? Just curious.
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Moon
--------------------
So many questions, so little time but I'm having fun.
I never said it had to have no bevel. Tell me this, if bevel made the hole completly over the 1 1/4 limit then how can you slightly bevel a 1 1/4 hole and then still have to force a 1 1/4 thumb slug into it. If what you say holds truth it should fall right into the hole. The amount of bevel you put can be so little it wont change the size but it can unsharpen the edge of that hole. Now I have seen to much bevel be used and a slug fall in but it wont fall in all the way without some kind of extra force. So if I had to say how do you get a 1 1/4 hole with bevel. I would say you take a 1 1/8 hole and then just use a sander to get it bigger. Yet I would never do that unless it was called for it where you had to get out over 2+oz. out of the ball.
So Precision, I agree that any hole changes dynamics. However I know from watching many of the rising being used that the weight hole placement and size of the ones I have seen used have yet to alter the pre-weight hole reaction. I even say this on mine that I used a 7/8 bit that went 2.25 inches into my ball. I had no change in the reaction. Now on another ball I did this with it gave me some negative weight and my ball picks up a little sooner. Yet not on the rising, there has been no change in the reaction.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on November 26, 2007, 02:31:40 AM
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: DukeHarding on December 03, 2007, 07:25:25 AM
The statics were all legal. 1/2 oz. of side wt., little finger, can't remember the TW.
I had my driller open the thumb enough so I could throw the ball, even though the span is about 1/2 shorter than my span.
I threw the ball3 times, it reacted well, not as big a hooking ball, as I thought it would be.
I'm sure that is due to the ball not fitting and also being a pound heavier than I normally roll.
After 3 shots I could feel the tear in my bicep tendon (again).
I decided to sell the ball. It's now on ebay. I will eventually pick up a 14 pound Rising. Ball does have great continuation at the pin deck. Hard hitting ball.
--------------------
Duke Harding
Bowling Balls in my eBay Store... (http://"http://www.dukeharding.com")