Post by: tenpinspro on March 09, 2007, 05:36:55 AM
It wasn’t simply about business and money. They could have produced or released the Phoenix and taken the profits from this. But again, the ball did not meet their standards to what they considered to be in their “high†performance category. Instead, they are taking a loss on this project which made me appreciate what they are really trying to do there. I’ve never seen a company turn away money so this was a surprise to me but has reassured me that Ebonite is sticking to their guns regardless of gains or loss.
Ron has already begun the process of designing a few cores for the new Track line and I have offered my input to him in regards to reactions as well that our loyal Track fans are accustomed to. Just hang in there guys, there are many new and exciting things that Ebonite has planned for us. I will most likely be making a trip to Kentucky to see much of this firsthand and I’ll keep you informed with the progress. Thanks for being patient.....
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Vise Inserts Staff
Dexter Advisory Staff
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
Edited on 3/9/2007 2:35 PM
Post by: jkiser01 on March 09, 2007, 01:44:17 PM
I see nothing wrong with that..
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I think the great slump of 2006-2007 is finally coming to an end!!
Post by: T Brockette on March 09, 2007, 01:46:13 PM
" Rick in Kentucky " sounds like the sequel to " Deliverance "
* Hijack Alert off *
--------------------
Tracy
TEXAS CONNECTION
Post by: directdrill on March 09, 2007, 01:50:18 PM
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Hook 'em Horns!
Post by: tenpinspro on March 09, 2007, 02:20:22 PM
quote:
" Rick in Kentucky " sounds like the sequel to " Deliverance "
Gee thanks TBrockette but that's why I have "Hitmen"
I'll make sure that when you come parading down the center in Reno that "dueling banjos" be played for your theme song like in Wrestling...
It's okay, that's why I'm bringing Carl with me for anyway....
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Vise Inserts Staff
Dexter Advisory Staff
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
Post by: Djarum on March 09, 2007, 02:35:07 PM
I will say this, some balls produced by some companies shouldn't be in a high performance line, and there are some balls in the mid-performance line that should be in a high performance line.
Its all about marketing, and that is what Ebonite is doing.
Dj
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The views and opinions of Djarum expressed on BallReviews.com do not necessarily state or reflect those of the BallReviews.com.
Post by: charlest on March 09, 2007, 05:17:39 PM
Please take a step backward, think about Rick's ethics and his standard of performance and committment to those standards for which he stands, then, please re-word what you said.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Edited on 3/9/2007 6:14 PM
Post by: pnj1967 on March 09, 2007, 05:41:07 PM
doesnt relize, the time, effort, and help Rick has given to the peolple here !!!!!!!
quote:
jls,
Please take a step backward, think about Rick's ethics and his standard of performance and committment to those standards for which he stands, then, please re-word what you said.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Edited on 3/9/2007 6:14 PM
--------------------
Enjoy the people on the ballreview.com forum. Like to help when I can.
Users I wont deal with ;
xrage4200; Will waste your time !!!!!!!!
twckhorn ; Says he wants a ball then will not return messages
Edited on 3/9/2007 6:38 PM
Post by: REVerse on March 09, 2007, 05:54:42 PM
quote:
I will say this, some balls produced by some companies shouldn't be in a high performance line, and there are some balls in the mid-performance line that should be in a high performance line.
This is true.
--------------------
Ray
"SUPPORT A PRO SHOP OF YOUR CHOICE"
Post by: WSUstroker on March 09, 2007, 06:54:37 PM
--------------------
Dan Chambers
www.absolutebowling.com
Post by: manu57 on March 09, 2007, 08:52:45 PM
I actually agree with JLS to a point. Let the ball community say if it's good are not. Who is Ebonite to deem a ball good or bad? Of coarse GM is going to have bad things to say about other car manufacturers... Let people make up their own mind!!
--------------------
The only difference between Genius and Stupidity is Genius has its Limits
Post by: Djarum on March 09, 2007, 11:02:15 PM
quote:
As a sales person myself. It seems the words Ron Hickland do have some smokescreen effect. It's a fact that Ebonite would have a hard time maunfaturing the Phoenix. They probably want to start off wit a clean slate of product. I'm sure you will see the Phoenix go overseas or something. We don't know what the "requirements" are to deam an Ebonite ball acceptable. We do know however options are like body parts we all have them. I'm sure the Phoenix was a great ball and could have been one of the best sellers from Track. No one will really know for sure. There are just as many people who think the One series has ball death as well as the new Ebonite releases. That is why we all have a choice.
I actually agree with JLS to a point. Let the ball community say if it's good are not. Who is Ebonite to deem a ball good or bad? Of coarse GM is going to have bad things to say about other car manufacturers... Let people make up their own mind!!
--------------------
The only difference between Genius and Stupidity is Genius has its Limits
I completly understand that they may not be able to reproduce the ball. That is acceptable. What I don't accept is that a) the pheonix wasn't up to their standards and b) they are just going to discard them.
I believe they want to discard them to prevent an ebay and distributer fiasco.
If ebonite was stand up, they would give them to folks who might actually need them. Give them to some youth bowlers out there. That would be stand up. They can make a write off for it.
Dj
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The views and opinions of Djarum expressed on BallReviews.com do not necessarily state or reflect those of the BallReviews.com.
Post by: Djarum on March 09, 2007, 11:02:45 PM
quote:
There is a strange distance between marketing and truth.
Thats the reality with any company, anywhere.
Dj
--------------------
The views and opinions of Djarum expressed on BallReviews.com do not necessarily state or reflect those of the BallReviews.com.
Post by: jtmouse on March 09, 2007, 11:19:48 PM
Ps: the Machine series is better than most of the Ebonite ball nowaday in market.
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on March 10, 2007, 12:27:44 AM
If you are a fan of Track Equipment you should be excited by everything that Rick expressed.....even if you disagree with it. Being around Track Equipment and these boards as long as I have I realize that many of you are very passionate, and vocal>>>>>>>>>>>>>these things are part of the draw to Track. People love it and they let it be known. These reasons, among others are why we are as tight of a "community" as we are. In the past many of you have put alot of faith in what myself and Rick have had say......and I hope that remains the same.
-Carl
--------------------
Carl Hurd
C-G Pro Shop (owner/operator)
Youngstown Ohio
Tag Team Member #1
TAG TEAM COACHING!!!!!!/Co-Founder
Edited on 3/10/2007 2:34 AM
Post by: bowl400 on March 10, 2007, 01:35:24 AM
quote:
* Hijack Alert on *
" Rick in Kentucky " sounds like the sequel to " Deliverance "
* Hijack Alert off *
hey t, rick says you are demoted to one of the b teams!
not my doing, just what the boss wants!
--------------------
Tracy
TEXAS CONNECTION
Post by: Xfest on March 10, 2007, 05:57:00 AM
quote:
jls,
Please take a step backward, think about Rick's ethics and his standard of performance and committment to those standards for which he stands, then, please re-word what you said.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Edited on 3/9/2007 6:14 PM
I'd also like him to speak in proper English language. Something that you could actually read.
--------------------
"Do you NV me?"
Ebonite Total NV 
Ebonite Angular One Hammer Black Widow Ebonite Smash Time Pearl"Ey, Yo Crank! What ball was that?"
Post by: jls on March 10, 2007, 08:51:57 AM
quote:
If the Phoenix did not meet Ebonite's high standards, how
do they explain some of the crap balls that they have
put out in the past? The Phoenix is a good ball, better
than most of the stuff that I have seen from Ebonite.
There is a strange distance between marketing and truth.
HOW DO THEY EXPLAIN "PIGS CAN FLY"
OR MAYBE THEY JUST DON'T THINK THEY HAVE TOO!!!!!
"MARKETING AND TRUTH<<<<<<<< WELL SAID SIR!!!!
--------------------
jls31316
Post by: pnj1967 on March 10, 2007, 09:26:56 AM
To the ignor list !!!!!!!!
quote:quote:Quotejls,
Please take a step backward, think about Rick's ethics and his standard of performance and committment to those standards for which he stands, then, please re-word what you said.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Edited on 3/9/2007 6:14 PM
the crank, you qualify.
anyone who has used any columbia or track products in the last few years, would have trouble saying they are not quality balls.
now for the TRUTH
columbia and track and storm { on some of their models } use the HIGHEST QUALITY COVERSTOCK MATERIAL FROM BASF.
from reliable sources, i have heard ebonite does not buy this high quality coverstock, the choose to buy a lower grade coverstock and do some in house tweaking!!!!!!!!!! am i going to fast for you english wan a bees????
so for any of you coffee drinking english wana bees to say that columbia/track products are "no good" you simply do not know what your talking about.
and when that happens>>> the geeks start bashing and saying stuff like speak english. give it a rest loser boy.
IT WOULD PROBABLY COST EBONITE MORE MONEY to produce the phoenix, due to the fact that they would have to buy the higher grade coverstock!!!!!!
and why should they do that, when they can save MONEY and tweak their coverstock to their specs:????
so all of you english major wan a bees, take a step back yourself.
when this rick or whatever his name is says the balls did not meet. he is
giving people the wrong impression.
newguy himself confirmed this in another post. if you english speaking wan a bee's know how to read, go read it!!!!!
stop your usual 2 bit low life bashing.
and go back to doing what you do best, surf the net in your underwear while drinking coffee.
--------------------
--------------------
jls31316
Edited on 3/10/2007 9:58 AM
--------------------
Enjoy the people on the ballreview.com forum. Like to help when I can.
Users I wont deal with ;
xrage4200; Will waste your time !!!!!!!!
twckhorn ; Says he wants a ball then will not return messages
Post by: jls on March 10, 2007, 09:31:39 AM
"IDIOT" THE TRUTH HURTS LOSER BOY????
you sir are a lowlife, don't know what your talking about, and are a graduate in honors of geek 101.
bash away
get a life.
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jls31316
Post by: directdrill on March 10, 2007, 09:34:25 AM
DO NOT bash on Rick. Look at the number of posts he creates or responds to here on the Track forum. He is one of the most knowledgeable people in the Track forum and BR.com in general. He has helped me and my game tremendously, and has done the same for MANY others. I have talked to him on the phone on several occasions and he will talk tech talk, but makes it easy to understand. Besides, he is only relaying information provided to him from Ebonite. If you have a problem with what Ebonite said, take it up with them but leave Rick out of it.
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Hook 'em Horns!
Post by: jls on March 10, 2007, 09:47:01 AM
quote:
JLS,
DO NOT bash on Rick. Look at the number of posts he creates or responds to here on the Track forum. He is one of the most knowledgeable people in the Track forum and BR.com in general. He has helped me and my game tremendously, and has done the same for MANY others. I have talked to him on the phone on several occasions and he will talk tech talk, but makes it easy to understand. Besides, he is only relaying information provided to him from Ebonite. If you have a problem with what Ebonite said, take it up with them but leave Rick out of it.
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Hook 'em Horns!
have no problem with him, just do not agree with the meet the standards statement.
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jls31316
Post by: directdrill on March 10, 2007, 10:14:17 AM
quote:
when this rick or whatever his name is says the balls did not meet. he is
giving people the wrong impression.
JLS,
You did claim that Rick made the statement about the Phoenix not meeting Ebonite standards. Read Rick's original post again. This statement was made by Ron and Bob from Ebonite, NOT Rick.
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Hook 'em Horns!
Post by: jls on March 10, 2007, 10:21:09 AM
the meet the standard thing, is more likely due to the difference is the way the two make their coverstocks, it is probably more costly for ebonite to try to duplicate columbia/track coverstock.
and why should they, when they have such quality coverstocks of their own.
does not make the phoenix a bad ball.
THAT SIR WAS AND IS THE POINT.
have a nice day direct, will talk to you later.
rick, no way bashing you, sorry if it looked like it.
--------------------
jls31316
Post by: Stan on March 10, 2007, 10:45:42 AM
Given, the core, coverstock and filler material, they would have a problem reproducing the EXACT ball.
Makes perfect sense to me why they would choose not to make the ball. Also, the balls in stock are being offered to overseas proshops until they are gone. Guess, if any are left over, they will just dump them in the trash.
Just what I read and heard.
Post by: jls on March 10, 2007, 12:18:19 PM
quote:
I also received the letter from Ebonite about not producing the Phoenix. I also heard from an ex-Track rep that ebonite does not have the ability to reproduce the core. Not sure if this is sour grapes or not.
Given, the core, coverstock and filler material, they would have a problem reproducing the EXACT ball.
Makes perfect sense to me why they would choose not to make the ball. Also, the balls in stock are being offered to overseas proshops until they are gone. Guess, if any are left over, they will just dump them in the trash.
Just what I read and heard.
STAN<<<< WELL SAID, and that's what i have been saying, why should they make it.
but don't lead people to believe that this ball is a P.O.S. because it is not.
and that is what i tried to point out.
ebonite has their own coverstocks, and then are doing great. so why try to do columbia/tracks????
smart move.
but the phoenix is a good ball.
thanks
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jls31316
Post by: Rev_O on March 10, 2007, 12:37:56 PM
--------------------
Rev-O
Post by: jls on March 10, 2007, 01:13:54 PM
quote:
jls, Are you by any chance related to the themezz. You sure do seem to like to cause trouble, or at least try to do that.
Let us know more about yourself, put some thing in your profile.QuoteQuoteQuote
when this rick or whatever his name is says the balls did not meet. he is
giving people the wrong impression.
BIGMOUTH OR MOUTHBIG
it's called causing trouble??? when you stick up for the quality of a ball.
if that be the case, then whatever loser boy.
once again you have shown that you know nothing about what is being talked about here. so you do the geek thing and bash.
THE PHONEIX IS AND WOULD HAVE BEEN A QUALITY BALL.
ebonite can not or does not want to make it.
so what!!!!!!
it does not mean that the phoenix is a P.O.S.
JLS,
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Edited on 3/10/2007 2:12 PM
Edited on 3/12/2007 1:49 PM
Post by: themagician on March 10, 2007, 01:16:22 PM
Think about it, i'm sure companies make x amount of a new ball regardless of it going into mass production. The way I see it as this is just a ball we found out about, this stuff happens but normally the public doesn't know or its not this type of buyout situation.
Its one ball and Ebonite is handling it the way they seem fit and there is no reason to complain as there will be more new balls and plenty others out there.
Also we should thank Ron Hickland, Rick Leong and many others for there contributions on the subject, we have learned alot from them about the situation and shouldn't argue something with them when they are trying to help us benefit.
--------------------
Just another aspiring junior bowler who hasn't hit full stride yet.
Post by: jls on March 12, 2007, 11:01:08 AM
quote:
jls31316,
Do you work for Ebonite? I'm not sure why you are so emphatic about getting your point across, since if you don't work at Ebonite, you truly know as much about the whole situation as the rest of us... and that ain't much.
Rick's original post said nothing about the Phoenix being a P.O.S. It simply said that it din't meet Ebonite's requirements. That could be performance, cost, ease of replication, or a number of other things.
Nobody said the Phoenix was a P.O.S... you read that into Rick's post and then turned on anybody with a counter-point, like a rabid dog. Chill brotha. So, the Phoenix won't be released. There will be others, maybe worse, maybe better. Only time will tell...
-TyShoe
--------------------
Proud member of the Track Legion...... Holy Flaming T!
X X X X X X X X 9/ XXX... Darn wiggling 7 pin!
Click on my profile to check out my balls!
My league scores and journal (http://"http://www.allbowling.com/journal/myleague.php?leagueid=1245")
tyrone>>> please read>>> "their extensive testing process and what criteria they feel a product needs to perform at prior to release"
these are his words>>>>> now to me, it makes the ball out to be a non performer. having read reviews from those who have tested this ball. they seem to feel this was an excellent ball.
now if your bothered to read newguys post, i believe he stated his reasons why this ball was not released. and newguy should know. do you know who knowguy is???? he is and was the head of track / dynothane at one time.
many people believe the reason was "cost" not performance.
and ebonite was smart not to release this ball. untill such time as they can
make a coverstock that will meet their requirements.
subject closed
--------------------
jls31316
Post by: tenpinspro on March 12, 2007, 11:38:55 AM
http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?CategoryID=2&ForumID=14&TopicID=155160&PageNum=2
tenpinspro
Posted: 2/24/2007 1:42 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes it is sad. The ball is very nice from what Carl has been relaying to me. He's been shooting lights out in a few different houses with this piece. I never did receive mine. They said they under produced due to large distributor buy ins which (business wise) if I were Ebonite, I'd fulfill these orders at San Antonio (because Col can duplicate these without a problem), keep my distributors happy which in turn would keep the public happy. After this, proceed with my own designs for the future, doesn't that make more sense instead of losing out on all the sales that your customers want? I don't know guys....makes me think twice about joining this team.
A piece of inside info, reps from companies are pumped to push product to distributors (not easy to do). Distributors have learned in the past that some pieces will sell well and some don't, simple as that. They get stuck blowing out and losing money on some pieces so when you have a very good distributor buy-in (a manufacturer's primary customer), it's very important to keep that customer happy, right?
I feel Phil has made a very good piece here, get yours while you can. I'm still going to try...
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Vise Inserts Staff
Dexter Advisory Staff
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
===============================================================================
tyrone>>> please read>>> "their extensive testing process and what criteria they feel a product needs to perform at prior to release"
these are his words>>>>> now to me, it makes the ball out to be a non performer.
to reiterate:
quote:
I feel Phil has made a very good piece here, get yours while you can. I'm still going to try...
In actuality JLS, these "are" their words. With no disrespect to Phil (newguy) whatsoever, I was simply relaying some information that I thought would be helpful. I already posted my thoughts earlier.
It's probably no different then if Chevrolet bought Ford and felt their product didn't meet their criteria as well. Everybody has their own standards and way of doing things. I assume this is why I was chosen to fly to Kentucky to see their (Ebonite) operations and to get a better understanding of what and how they do things there.
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Vise Inserts Staff
Dexter Advisory Staff
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
Post by: jls on March 12, 2007, 01:20:03 PM
quote:
If the Phoenix did not meet Ebonite's high standards, how
do they explain some of the crap balls that they have
put out in the past? The Phoenix is a good ball, better
than most of the stuff that I have seen from Ebonite.
There is a strange distance between marketing and truth.
jdt, good point.
--------------------
jls31316
Post by: cnimsk on March 12, 2007, 01:25:59 PM
Chuck
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on March 12, 2007, 01:42:53 PM
--------------------
Carl Hurd
C-G Pro Shop (owner/operator)
Youngstown Ohio
Tag Team Member #1
TAG TEAM COACHING!!!!!!/Co-Founder
Post by: RDS on March 13, 2007, 10:01:38 AM
--------------------
Current Arsenal:
Power Machine
Strike Machine
Machine
Arsenal Artillary
Angular Artillary
Rule Delta 1
Inertia
Heat Blast
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on March 13, 2007, 12:01:54 PM
The LEGION LIVES ON!!!!!
--------------------
Carl Hurd
C-G Pro Shop (owner/operator)
Youngstown Ohio
Tag Team Member #1
TAG TEAM COACHING!!!!!!/Co-Founder
Post by: jls on March 13, 2007, 12:57:14 PM
quote:
RDS.......some bickering-------but remember:
The LEGION LIVES ON!!!!!
--------------------
Carl Hurd
C-G Pro Shop (owner/operator)
Youngstown Ohio
Tag Team Member #1
TAG TEAM COACHING!!!!!!/Co-Founder
RDS, why do you feel it is bickering, the way i see it is simple.
we have two companies who produce their balls in a different manner.
as i have said, it does not make sense for ebonite to try to duplicate these balls. they are smart for not doing that. and in time, i am sure that they will bring out their version.
now as for the "meet their standards" thing. in the past two days, every customer who when asked this question, answered the same.
when a company says a product does not meet their standards, what does this mean to you? so far, all have answered the same. must be a lower quality.
now no where is there any explaination by ebonite as to what they meant.
did it really mean they felt the ball was of a lower quality?
did it mean it was not a product that they felt they could easily reproduce?
did it mean it was too costly?
having had much success with columbia/track products, i do not feel that they are of lower quality. having sold the big shot well since it's release, i certainly don't feel it's of lower quality. and i feel the same way about the phoenix. even tho we never received any from our dist. to sell.
so far today, we have sold two big shots. and one was to a customer who bought a big shot 1 week ago. he loved it. yet he told me this. that at his local bowling alley the word is that the big shot is no good, and ebonite will not make any more of them. so once the big shots made by columbia are gone, their gone.
and this is why i take exception to the "meet their requirements" comment.
i feel it is a little mis leading. this is a good quality release, and i believe that the phoenix would have been also. and the feedback that i have seen on the phoenix has all been positive.
and again, don't blame ebonite for not trying to make this ball at this time.
their coverstocks are doing extemely well. last thursday we received a double order on the tnv. when my girl was checking they in, she informed me of this. since it was the tnv, no need to panic. need to re order again today.
no knock on rick or carl or ron.
--------------------
jls31316
Edited on 3/13/2007 1:01 PM