Post by: jhutch769 on October 23, 2007, 11:38:36 AM
We just got in a few Risings on Monday and before we drill mine, we wanted to take a closer look at the 360 degree drilling technique. Any idea where we can get more information on that? It says to look up trackbowling.com on the drill sheet, but neither my dad nor I were able to find further information.
We feel that the recommended drilling may be a tad too strong for me.
If anyone has any suggestions, it would be greatly appreciated.
I think my speed is 17 mph and RPM is 375-425.. can't quite remember all the numbers are on the other computer.. Have not computed my axis tilt.
Here are some links to some of my videos..
http://putfile.com/jhutch757
Thank you,
Joe
Post by: Xfest on October 23, 2007, 08:10:44 PM
--------------------
Formerly known as KennySkidmore.
http://www.kennyskidmorebowling.com
It's up, but we are still updating!
Post by: BuddiesProShopcom - Bill on October 23, 2007, 08:57:23 PM
--------------------
Thanks
Bill
BuddiesProShop.com
"The Place All Bowlers Shop"
Post by: Next Level PS on October 23, 2007, 11:12:22 PM
quote:
You can use any Asymmetrical Layout that you want to in these balls. There is nothing special about this ball that makes laying it out any different from another ball. The 360 layout thing is only really valid if you have on of the balls with the lower top and short pin.
--------------------
Thanks
Bill
BuddiesProShop.com
"The Place All Bowlers Shop"
Thanks telling me now i drill one for a player today and it did not roll well on the wood. I use the recommened layout and it kept overreading the midlane and it puke on the backend.
--------------------
Next Level Proshop
Union, NJ
"THE BOWLERS WILL NOT BE DENIED"
www.lovedoublesonline.com
Post by: DP3 on October 23, 2007, 11:17:54 PM
--------------------
-DJ Marshall
...The Twelve In a Row Pro Shop
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on October 23, 2007, 11:34:57 PM
Add polish!
-Carl
--------------------
Carl Hurd
C-G Pro Shop (owner/operator)
with locations in:
Youngstown Ohio (West Side Lanes)
and
Boardman Ohio (Camelot Lanes)
Track Intl- Tech Support
The Legion Lives @ www.trackbowling.com
Tag Team Member #1
TAG TEAM COACHING!!!!!!/Co-Founder
Post by: DP3 on October 23, 2007, 11:48:08 PM
--------------------
-DJ Marshall
...The Twelve In a Row Pro Shop
Post by: tenpinspro on October 24, 2007, 02:59:00 AM
quote:
You can use any Asymmetrical Layout that you want to in these balls. There is nothing special about this ball that makes laying it out any different from another ball. The 360 layout thing is only really valid if you have on of the balls with the lower top and short pin.
--------------------
Thanks
Bill
BuddiesProShop.com
"The Place All Bowlers Shop"
Agree to disagree sir, so you're saying that a .031 mass bias differential has no significance difference vs a .007? Are you telling people that a 3 inch mb at .007 vs a 3 inch mb at .031 makes no difference?
Therefore, if I grab your right arm and fall down (I'm a 120 lbs) vs Carl grabbing your right arm and fall down (he's about 250)...it doesn't matter...right?
You can't treat everything the same or we wouldn't or shouldn't then need any ratings of mass bias or rg's or differential for that matter...sorry guys but I have to make this point.
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl - Tech Support
Vise Inserts Staff
Dexter Advisory Staff
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
Post by: OHBowler on October 24, 2007, 04:35:25 AM
--------------------
Good transactions with..
Juggernaut
10NDPIT
Post by: Next Level PS on October 24, 2007, 08:15:09 AM
quote:
Lonce,
Add polish!
-Carl
--------------------
Carl Hurd
C-G Pro Shop (owner/operator)
with locations in:
Youngstown Ohio (West Side Lanes)
and
Boardman Ohio (Camelot Lanes)
Track Intl- Tech Support
The Legion Lives @ www.trackbowling.com
Tag Team Member #1
TAG TEAM COACHING!!!!!!/Co-Founder
did that got even worst...I hit it with a 1000 and 500 no help heading down to Seminar now in NJ with a little chip on my shoulder.
--------------------
Next Level Proshop
Union, NJ
"THE BOWLERS WILL NOT BE DENIED"
www.lovedoublesonline.com
Post by: Next Level PS on October 24, 2007, 08:29:48 AM
pap : 5 5/8 over 1/4 up
tilt 11.5 track with 13 degrees of tilt
rotation: 40 degrees
rev rate 375+
speed: 18 mph
I did the recommended layout it came out to be 5 1/2 X 4 1/4 X 1 above
on the fresh the ball was some what clean thru the first 10-15 feet onec it hit the midlane it kick it to gear too quick it just hook- set .
I think its the Dual Plan asymmetrical design some time these ball have the habit of hook setting. i will drill the player another one today. to see the diffence.
--------------------
Next Level Proshop
Union, NJ
"THE BOWLERS WILL NOT BE DENIED"
www.lovedoublesonline.com
Post by: smooth2222 on October 24, 2007, 09:13:44 AM
Post by: KMAN300 on October 24, 2007, 09:41:16 AM
After hearing all of this tell me, say I wanted a skid flip reaction, how would you lay the ball out for me.
Bowler stats.
speed 15-16mph
rev's 350-400
pap 5 1/2> 0^
tilt 11-13 deg
Thanks guys
--------------------
Its just a game? Yeah Right! 2nd place is the 1st loser
Post by: shelley on October 24, 2007, 09:47:28 AM
quote:
Agree to disagree sir, so you're saying that a .031 mass bias differential has no significance difference vs a .007? Are you telling people that a 3 inch mb at .007 vs a 3 inch mb at .031 makes no difference?
Over-reacting much? I don't think he implied that at all. It would be hard to believe that owner of one of the most respected online shops around would say that.
I took his statement as saying that laying out a Rising is no different from any other strong asymmetric from any other company. The One and NV lines, the former Rule and Machine lines, the Awesome balls from Morich, Epics, Paradigms, and all those other balls with significant MB diffs use basically the same drilling techniques. In that regard, there's nothing special about the Rising.
Do you need to be more careful laying out a Rising compared to, say, a Power Groove or Nighthawk? Sure. Does it have requirements that those balls don't? Heck yeah.
SH
Post by: OHBowler on October 24, 2007, 09:51:34 AM
--------------------
Good transactions with..
Juggernaut
10NDPIT
Post by: jhutch769 on October 24, 2007, 10:52:34 AM
posted same topic on tracks website last night, not replies there yet either.
Post by: tenpinspro on October 24, 2007, 11:26:44 AM
quote:
Over-reacting much? I don't think he implied that at all. It would be hard to believe that owner of one of the most respected online shops around would say that.
I took his statement as saying that laying out a Rising is no different from any other strong asymmetric from any other company. The One and NV lines, the former Rule and Machine lines, the Awesome balls from Morich, Epics, Paradigms, and all those other balls with significant MB diffs use basically the same drilling techniques. In that regard, there's nothing special about the Rising.
Do you need to be more careful laying out a Rising compared to, say, a Power Groove or Nighthawk? Sure. Does it have requirements that those balls don't? Heck yeah.
SH
Hey shelly, that's the problem...quick question, are you familiar with the ball motion/axis migration and contours when we push mass bias past .030? The contours no longer even hold the standard elliptical movement, it goes beserk! If you have seen this on CAD, you would be amazed...."again" I apologize if anybody took offense to this post but then again, all I'm trying to do here is to inform and help our fellow bowler (as we all have been doing here).
This ball "IS" very different and I just wanted to inform everyone of that fact. This is no different then when I corrected Clint Daley when he told Rock77 to drill his Machine (.025 mb diff) the same way as his other equipment (.017 mb diff or less) to expect the same reaction by placing the mb in the "same" place.
Guys, pushing the mb diff this high is a great and new technology (along w/Mo's) but please be careful in placement. You CAN'T just treat it the same...
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl - Tech Support
Vise Inserts Staff
Dexter Advisory Staff
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
Post by: woodzx12 on October 24, 2007, 04:06:59 PM
Quote
Lonce,
-Carl
--------------------
Carl Hurd
C-G Pro Shop (owner/operator)
with locations in:
Youngstown Ohio (West Side Lanes)
and
Boardman Ohio (Camelot Lanes)
Track Intl- Tech Support
The Legion Lives @ www.trackbowling.com
Tag Team Member #1
carl you stated that the rising should have a 1 inch pin and a half ounce of top weight. well my ball has a 4 inch pin and 2 ounces of top weight.the dill sheet is only good for 1 inch pin drilling. the drill sheet that comes in the box is also wrong. only for right handed bowlers no lefties.i drilled a regular asymetrcal dilling on this ball. i hope people dont buy this ball and have it drilled wrong. that would suck to pay 220.00 and the ball is a (pos) peace of s_ _ t... would be nice if your drill sheets had more information on the 360 drilling. the instructions are not very good.
Post by: Bar5003 on October 24, 2007, 04:22:29 PM
quote:
only for right handed bowlers no lefties.
i may be wrong but wouldnt you just mirror the layout for lefties? I think it even says that in the instructions...
--------------------
~Britton~Owner and Operator of
www.videoballreviews.com
VISE inserts The OFFICAL grip of videoballreviews.com
www.viseinserts.com
Edited on 10/24/2007 4:22 PM
Post by: woodzx12 on October 24, 2007, 04:29:10 PM
quote:quote:
only for right handed bowlers no lefties.
i may be wrong but wouldnt you just mirror the layout for lefties? I think it even says that in the instructions...
--------------------
Owner and Operator of
www.videoballreviews.com
VISE inserts The OFFICAL grip of videoballreviews.com
www.viseinserts.com
Edited on 10/24/2007 4:22 PM
on line the drill sheet is correct one for right handed and one for left handed. the box has them both for right handed no lefties allowed. i will be headed for the lanes in one hour. i hope that this ball is all what it is cranked up to be. i dont want to see my black widow pearl out hook it. til thursday see ya.
Post by: jhutch769 on October 24, 2007, 09:19:30 PM
Just finished league a bit ago... Started front 7 then moved the ten pin to the nine pin spot. Finished 258. Next front 8, smash 9, solid 7, finished 268.. Then I lost my speed and started moving around and finished 203...
Like it so far, will make a video soon, maybe even tomorrow.
Post by: stormed1 on October 25, 2007, 12:33:20 AM
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on October 25, 2007, 01:11:11 AM
quote:
DO not use polish on this ball. It made the carry worse and the reaction worse. The recommended layout will work for 95% of people who buy this ball. Pretty much your pin to pap will be whatever your horizontal pap measurement is.
This is a wrong statement. You would add polish to delay the hook. For many bowlers on a standard house shot this ball will roll quick, which is what Lonce is stating below.
quote:
carl you stated that the rising should have a 1 inch pin and a half ounce of top weight. well my ball has a 4 inch pin and 2 ounces of top weight.the dill sheet is only good for 1 inch pin drilling. the drill sheet that comes in the box is also wrong. only for right handed bowlers no lefties.i drilled a regular asymetrcal dilling on this ball. i hope people dont buy this ball and have it drilled wrong. that would suck to pay 220.00 and the ball is a (pos) peace of s_ _ t... would be nice if your drill sheets had more information on the 360 drilling. the instructions are not very good.
Where did I state this? We had targeted specs we wanted to hit, which were 2-2 1/4pin and 2-2 1/4TW. Most ball companies of targeted specs of 3 inch pins and 3oz topweight....but they vary don't they?
The drill sheet is not wrong. When you look at a drill sheet for any bowling ball it always shows right handed layouts, reverse it for left handed layouts.
The reason that the 360* layouts are not on the drill sheet is simple: the #1 layout is going to give the best overall ball motion. Changing the coverstock can make this layout work on almost any lane condtion. ALSO: the advanced layouts are available on the website for the pro shops that signed up for our Fast Track Program. These layouts will be released weekly or biweekly until they are all on the site.
-Carl
--------------------
Carl Hurd
C-G Pro Shop (owner/operator)
with locations in:
Youngstown Ohio (West Side Lanes)
and
Boardman Ohio (Camelot Lanes)
Track Intl- Tech Support
The Legion Lives @ www.trackbowling.com
Tag Team Member #1
TAG TEAM COACHING!!!!!!/Co-Founder
Post by: BuddiesProShopcom - Bill on October 25, 2007, 01:50:19 AM
The thing that is funny to me is that I went to Bowl Expo, and several trade shows held by distributors, and all the Track Reps at these shows were saying that this ball would be within the specs that I talked about before. I understand things changed, I just think people were expecting one thing, and then something else was delivered.
I spoke with Randy Tightloft (sorry if I got that wrong) from Ebonite that is doing the Rising seminar and I just ask him if you can do any asymmetrical layout and he said yes. Mo's LevRG has as heavy of a core as the Rising and similiar Differential, and there are a variety of layout that you can do with that ball. I think the one recommended layout thing is to keep it simple but it ends up confusing pro shop when they don't see and can't do exactly what they see in the picture.
The 360 technology has been around with any Asymmetrical ball, but hasn't really been talked about. Where the Mass Bias is located creates a plane that goes straight through the ball and comes out on the other side. This will have with any Asymmetrical ball. I have seen Mass Bias X-Out or Blems that the CG is above the Mass Bias and Pin line. So in that case you would need to bring the Mass Bias to the other side of the ball and lay it out using the plane of the Mass Bias on the opposite side of the ball, basically how it is described in the Rising sheets.
As for the other layouts they are suppose to be up on Track's website November 1st.
--------------------
Thanks
Bill
BuddiesProShop.com
"The Place All Bowlers Shop"
Post by: shelley on October 25, 2007, 07:06:42 AM
quote:
As for the other layouts they are suppose to be up on Track's website November 1st.
Hopefully not in DOC format this time.
SH
Post by: Atochabsh on October 25, 2007, 02:39:54 PM
Not very happy, since we could not attend the seminar due to work constrictions.
Erin
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on October 25, 2007, 02:53:10 PM
quote:
The thing that is funny to me is that I went to Bowl Expo, and several trade shows held by distributors, and all the Track Reps at these shows were saying that this ball would be within the specs that I talked about before. I understand things changed, I just think people were expecting one thing, and then something else was delivered.
Bill- The reason for the change is the process of ball manufacturing. Once everthing is poured and set up no one can predict or manipulate where the CG will end up. So far I am happy, the longer pins are fine and vast majority of the topweights are lower as expected. You are very correct about the LevRG, however remember one thing....there is only 1MB on the LevRG, the Rising has 2, so the technology is different. Where there may still end up being a MB the rating is far lower than the marked MB on standard asymmetrical balls, on the Rising it is equally .031 on both sides.
-Carl
--------------------
Carl Hurd
C-G Pro Shop (owner/operator)
with locations in:
Youngstown Ohio (West Side Lanes)
and
Boardman Ohio (Camelot Lanes)
Track Intl- Tech Support
The Legion Lives @ www.trackbowling.com
Tag Team Member #1
TAG TEAM COACHING!!!!!!/Co-Founder
Post by: shelley on October 25, 2007, 03:19:50 PM
quote:
there is only 1MB on the LevRG, the Rising has 2, so the technology is different. Where there may still end up being a MB the rating is far lower than the marked MB on standard asymmetrical balls, on the Rising it is equally .031 on both sides.
I will have to disagree here. You cannot talk about there being two mass biases "equal on both sides" simply due to the fact that the MB strength is simply a difference in the RG values on different axes. The axis goes completely through the ball and when you measure the RG, it makes no difference whether you put (say) the pin at the north pole or at the south pole. That RG will be the same either way.
The RG describes how mass is distributed around an axis, it just doesn't make sense to say that the MB diff for the LevRG is 0.033 on one side but not the other.
Is there a difference laying the ball out with the two different ends of the axis? Sure. I can look to Visionary's AMB system and know that. Why are the AMB balls like that? Because if you drill into the core, you change the core dynamics (ask Brunswick, right?). By creating a lighter spot on the opposite side, you can create a mass bias (the extra mass is opposite the light spot) but when you drill, you aren't removing heavy core material and are altering the core dynamics less.
I would bet money that if you took two AMBs, laid one out as Visionary says (find the normal MB 13.5" away from the locator pin), laid the other out using the AMB locator pin, but otherwise with the "same" layout, you'd get the same differences that Ebonite's "new" 360* technology would give you when you drill a Rising.
I admit I'm on shaky ground. I'm not a core designer, I'm not even a driller. I'm definitely not one of the new Ebonite Chosen. But this "0.031 equally on both sides" is bull.
SH
Post by: tenpinspro on October 25, 2007, 04:41:02 PM
quote:
The RG describes how mass is distributed around an axis, it just doesn't make sense to say that the MB diff for the LevRG is 0.033 on one side but not the other.
Just for discussion sake, let's go back to my coffee cup handle....the handle is now bigger or heavier (on one side and one side only)....I'm sorry but guys, this isn't that hard to comphrehend. Where ever we aim that handle can and will dictate when and where we fall with gravity....truly understanding ball motion.
Let's picture this, if the earth's core were not completely centered (we should lope, right?)....now lets add another planet to the side of it.....welcome to mass bias.
On edit: 360 is not a new technology per say(it was designed and used by Brian Pursel back 7-8 yrs ago and others maybe), BUT we have fine tuned the cover to make it work efficiently.
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl - Tech Support
Vise Inserts Staff
Dexter Advisory Staff
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
Edited on 10/25/2007 4:53 PM
Post by: shelley on October 25, 2007, 04:47:09 PM
quote:
welcome to mass bias.
Yes, it's about time physics showed up.
SH
Post by: tenpinspro on October 25, 2007, 05:05:32 PM
quote:quote:
welcome to mass bias.
Yes, it's about time physics showed up.
SH
Shelly, I agree....waiting to see if tennis balls or basketballs to have some type of imbalance.....lol in our lifetime? we'll see......not holding my breath dude....
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl - Tech Support
Vise Inserts Staff
Dexter Advisory Staff
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
Post by: woodzx12 on October 25, 2007, 05:53:44 PM
quote:
Carl:
The thing that is funny to me is that I went to Bowl Expo, and several trade shows held by distributors, and all the Track Reps at these shows were saying that this ball would be within the specs that I talked about before. I understand things changed, I just think people were expecting one thing, and then something else was delivered.
I spoke with Randy Tightloft (sorry if I got that wrong) from Ebonite that is doing the Rising seminar and I just ask him if you can do any asymmetrical layout and he said yes. Mo's LevRG has as heavy of a core as the Rising and similiar Differential, and there are a variety of layout that you can do with that ball. I think the one recommended layout thing is to keep it simple but it ends up confusing pro shop when they don't see and can't do exactly what they see in the picture.
The 360 technology has been around with any Asymmetrical ball, but hasn't really been talked about. Where the Mass Bias is located creates a plane that goes straight through the ball and comes out on the other side. This will have with any Asymmetrical ball. I have seen Mass Bias X-Out or Blems that the CG is above the Mass Bias and Pin line. So in that case you would need to bring the Mass Bias to the other side of the ball and lay it out using the plane of the Mass Bias on the opposite side of the ball, basically how it is described in the Rising sheets.
As for the other layouts they are suppose to be up on Track's website November 1st.
--------------------
Thanks
Bill
BuddiesProShop.com
"The Place All Bowlers Shop"
thanks carl. your information was right on with you telling me to throw out that stupid drill sheet fot the rising. my rising had a 4 inch pin not even close to the targeted 1 to 2 inch pin. i drilled mine pin over fingers mass bias in strong position. 5.5 to pap,and mb 4.5 from pap. anyone that wants a ball to hook out of the building should consider this ball. in oil only 248 first game out of the box. second game 289. had to put it away in the thrid game ran out of oil. by the way that would be a fricken 4 pin in the 11 frame. awesome...................
Post by: tenpinspro on October 25, 2007, 06:51:56 PM
quote:
thanks carl. your information was right on with you telling me to throw out that stupid drill sheet fot the rising. my rising had a 4 inch pin not even close to the targeted 1 to 2 inch pin. i drilled mine pin over fingers mass bias in strong position. 5.5 to pap,and mb 4.5 from pap. anyone that wants a ball to hook out of the building should consider this ball. in oil only 248 first game out of the box. second game 289. had to put it away in the thrid game ran out of oil. by the way that would be a fricken 4 pin in the 11 frame. awesome...................
Way to go dude, nice bowling....we're just here to help. Haven't we always?.....Tag Team Coaching coming at ya......
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl - Tech Support
Vise Inserts Staff
Dexter Advisory Staff
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
Post by: Next Level PS on October 25, 2007, 08:22:04 PM
--------------------
Next Level Proshop
Union, NJ
"THE BOWLERS WILL NOT BE DENIED"
www.lovedoublesonline.com
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on October 25, 2007, 11:32:43 PM
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on October 25, 2007, 11:49:57 PM
I have 2 Risings drilled identical....the first one I drilled in Hoptown when rick and I visited in June and the other I drilled in August. The one from Hoptown has the suggested layout of pin 1 inch up in palm, but the MB was swung 180* from where it would be on the suggested layout. The other one has the pin in the same spot but the MB where the drill sheet shows it. These 2 balls react identical to eachother. I have to admit that I was a bit skeptical, thus the reason I did this test on my own.
-Carl
--------------------
Carl Hurd
C-G Pro Shop (owner/operator)
with locations in:
Youngstown Ohio (West Side Lanes)
and
Boardman Ohio (Camelot Lanes)
Track Intl- Tech Support
The Legion Lives @ www.trackbowling.com
Tag Team Member #1
TAG TEAM COACHING!!!!!!/Co-Founder
Post by: jls on October 26, 2007, 11:57:22 AM
quote:
shelley,
I have 2 Risings drilled identical....the first one I drilled in Hoptown when rick and I visited in June and the other I drilled in August. The one from Hoptown has the suggested layout of pin 1 inch up in palm, but the MB was swung 180* from where it would be on the suggested layout. The other one has the pin in the same spot but the MB where the drill sheet shows it. These 2 balls react identical to eachother. I have to admit that I was a bit skeptical, thus the reason I did this test on my own.
-Carl
--------------------
Carl Hurd
C-G Pro Shop (owner/operator)
with locations in:
Youngstown Ohio (West Side Lanes)
and
Boardman Ohio (Camelot Lanes)
Track Intl- Tech Support
The Legion Lives @ www.trackbowling.com
Tag Team Member #1
TAG TEAM COACHING!!!!!!/Co-Founder
exactly the point Carl. you where in doublt, so you drilled up another to make sure. then youn drilled up 2 more.
but back here on planet earth, you knpw where real customers are at.
they simply will not or can not afford to drill up 2-4 more balls to make sure.
they want it done right the first time!!!!!!
and when track promotes SECRET CODE DRILLINGS, that does not help mr and mrs small pro shop do their jobs well.
you your self had doublts>>>>>> and you worked on this new model.
the average small pro shop did not. and must drill it right for their customers. and when they are told>>> attend a seminar to get the codes, they are not please!!!!
drill it using the #1 layout, use normal a-sym layouts, use only 1-2" pins,
stand on your head while drilling etc etc etc.
Track needs to stop playing secret agent man and release all the drilling info, so real pro shops can drill the ball the best way possible for their customers.
go to the web site, { after buying these balls for big bucks from our dist. }
and get a code.
where do you people come up with this stuff.
unbelievable.
one expert on here says throw the drill sheets in the garbage, one says use them, it will be ok, >> and the check is in the mail!!!!
do you people not realize that some pro shops may not want to take the chance and drill a 4" pin using the #1 layout because so many have heard this is a no no.
--------------------
jls, proud watcher of womens golf
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on October 26, 2007, 03:37:24 PM
So finding out for myself so I can give you accurate information was a no no on my part? Rick and I have always been for the bowler and it seems that you guys want to bash us now for doing what we have always done.
It was stated to the pro shops during the trade shows that the shops that sign up for one of our packages would get access to the pro shop side of the site. This was Paul's idea to give the shops that belong to the Legion an edge.
As for one expert saying one thing and us saying another....which of us are tied in with Track? I speak to Paul almost daily and have had extensive conversations with Ron about the Rising. Rick and I were informing people about this ball during the trade shows. I have been testing this ball since June and drilled additional balls so that I can inform people of what I see. The pin distances are not important in this ball. Ron said this "if USBC did not make it a requirement to be on the ball I would not have marked them".....that should tell you how important the cg location is.
-Carl
--------------------
Carl Hurd
C-G Pro Shop (owner/operator)
with locations in:
Youngstown Ohio (West Side Lanes)
and
Boardman Ohio (Camelot Lanes)
Track Intl- Tech Support
The Legion Lives @ www.trackbowling.com
Tag Team Member #1
TAG TEAM COACHING!!!!!!/Co-Founder
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on October 26, 2007, 03:47:37 PM
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: revTrex on October 26, 2007, 03:51:49 PM
...and punish those who don't belong. This is ridiculous, my friend, to withhold information from both bowlers and pro shop owners. Oh, sure, I get it -- you want to make it this special thing, where people have to go to your Legion shops, etc. But it will hurt everyone, including you, in the process. Furthermore, the process of withholding information from pro shops who don't subscribe to your company's exclusive club may very well be a sensitive matter in the field of business ethics.
The bottom line is that knowledge must be made available to all. These aren't trade secrets. This isn't sensitive information. It's an %@$#%&! drill sheet, and a clear, technical explanation as to why the Rising is so much more special than the other balls marketed for similar conditions, i.e., LevRG, Attitude, Break, etc. That's all we are asking for.
Post by: shelley on October 26, 2007, 03:57:52 PM
quote:
jls,
So finding out for myself so I can give you accurate information was a no no on my part? Rick and I have always been for the bowler and it seems that you guys want to bash us now for doing what we have always done.
Damn, I hate to say it, but I agree with JLS. You can afford to drill several of these balls so that you can know for sure. That's great, someone should do that so that this information is out there. His point is that not all shops can do that and what are those shops supposed to do for their customers? If someone says "follow the drill sheet, this ball is so special that you can't just use standard layouts for strongly asymmetric balls", they are stuck with what's on the drill sheet and can't afford to do anything more creative because they don't know what the result will be.
quote:
It was stated to the pro shops during the trade shows that the shops that sign up for one of our packages would get access to the pro shop side of the site. This was Paul's idea to give the shops that belong to the Legion an edge.
And those that don't have "the edge", they're out of luck. The secrecy, the confusion, it only hurts consumers. How many shops are not part of the Legion and don't get "the edge"? Most? Hardly any? I'd guess that most shops are not part of the Legion, don't have the edge, and run a significant risk of doing stupid stuff with the super-special, super-secret ball. If they have to guess, because they have neither secret stuff nor the money to experiment, if the ball sucks for some customer, they blame Track. The shop doesn't want to deal with the hassle and doesn't carry this brand new hook monster, so they promote other equipment from companies that are actually straightforward with their customers (shops).
quote:
As for one expert saying one thing and us saying another....which of us are tied in with Track?
That's disgusting. You should be ashamed.
I'm all for high tech. New, neat, pushing the envelope. But you can't do good science without the free exchange of information.
I was a Track guy. I loved my Mutant. Whoever has the old list of Track Legion members may take my name off of it. I don't like the runaround, I don't like the secrecy, I don't like the implication that unless you're one of the Chosen, you better just be a good little monkey and follow the included drill sheet.
SH
Post by: jhutch769 on October 26, 2007, 04:08:26 PM
Post by: revTrex on October 26, 2007, 04:15:57 PM
Funniest thing today, especially in the context of the above discussion.
I sure as hell wouldn't wager on that bet. I mean, we don't even know the drillings! And it doesn't seem like the 00s at Track want to release them anytime soon.
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on October 26, 2007, 04:21:32 PM
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: six pack on October 26, 2007, 04:35:18 PM
--------------------
playing with track this year,Phenom,Mean machine,power machine and Inertia.(opps,bought a Columbia ball)what's up with that?it's all Ebonite
Post by: shelley on October 26, 2007, 04:35:57 PM
quote:
Right now there is three layouts you can place on the rising. The suggested layout that comes on the sheet. Then a pin up layout like you see on the layout sheet for the Kinetic. The other is a trick layout, you must know a bowlers pap to use this layout.
The Rising is arguably the most specialest, uniquest ball ever made. MB diff of 0.031, spin time probably under 5s, kind of purple. And you don't even need to know the bowler's PAP to lay it out. 6" PAP like mine? Pin up. 4" PAP? Pin up. You can even put the pin an inch above the grip center without worrying about the fact that for someone with a 6"+ PAP, you'll clip every hole on the ball. This ball is special and won't do that.
No matter your PAP, you can put the pin 1" above grip center. For some it'll be a 6" pin-to-PAP, some it'll be a 3" pin-to-PAP, but everyone will get the same reaction. Talk about high tech bullshti.
SH
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on October 26, 2007, 04:45:13 PM
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: shelley on October 26, 2007, 04:51:52 PM
quote:
Say a 3 inch over take the pin and move it one inch left so you place it 4" away and fallow the same degree for the mb. This would be the opp for you, 6" go 1 inch right with the pin and then the 45 degrees with the mb.
Had we not had one of the Chosen to share that information, we might never have known. It's not in the drill sheet. The drill sheet says "average bowlers" but doesn't say anything about what "average" means. Arguably the worst drill sheet ever puked into existence. Maybe if Ebonite had not been distracted by the inclusion of Actual Full Color Pictures, they might have bothered to take the time to present technical information to the non-Chosen experts instead of treating them like idiots who are lucky to notice that the ball is round.
SH
Post by: jls on October 26, 2007, 05:01:35 PM
quote:quote:
jls,
So finding out for myself so I can give you accurate information was a no no on my part? Rick and I have always been for the bowler and it seems that you guys want to bash us now for doing what we have always done.
Damn, I hate to say it, but I agree with JLS. You can afford to drill several of these balls so that you can know for sure. That's great, someone should do that so that this information is out there. His point is that not all shops can do that and what are those shops supposed to do for their customers? If someone says "follow the drill sheet, this ball is so special that you can't just use standard layouts for strongly asymmetric balls", they are stuck with what's on the drill sheet and can't afford to do anything more creative because they don't know what the result will be.quote:
It was stated to the pro shops during the trade shows that the shops that sign up for one of our packages would get access to the pro shop side of the site. This was Paul's idea to give the shops that belong to the Legion an edge.
And those that don't have "the edge", they're out of luck. The secrecy, the confusion, it only hurts consumers. How many shops are not part of the Legion and don't get "the edge"? Most? Hardly any? I'd guess that most shops are not part of the Legion, don't have the edge, and run a significant risk of doing stupid stuff with the super-special, super-secret ball. If they have to guess, because they have neither secret stuff nor the money to experiment, if the ball sucks for some customer, they blame Track. The shop doesn't want to deal with the hassle and doesn't carry this brand new hook monster, so they promote other equipment from companies that are actually straightforward with their customers (shops).quote:
As for one expert saying one thing and us saying another....which of us are tied in with Track?
That's disgusting. You should be ashamed.
I'm all for high tech. New, neat, pushing the envelope. But you can't do good science without the free exchange of information.
I was a Track guy. I loved my Mutant. Whoever has the old list of Track Legion members may take my name off of it. I don't like the runaround, I don't like the secrecy, I don't like the implication that unless you're one of the Chosen, you better just be a good little monkey and follow the included drill sheet.
SH
SHELLEY, REV, hold on here, two guys agreeing with me in the same day.
am i dying? what have you heard?
carl / rick, not bashing anyone, just trying to point out, that there is way too much cOnfusion about this ball. and it could come back and bite track in the butt.
as i pointed out, one dist. told a pro shop, that if the pins are 3-4 out, the ball must be a 2nd. now, you know that is not true, but you don't need this getting out.
now what dist. said this, don't know, don't care, did not even bother to ask the person who told me. the point is, if it was said, and i believe it was, thats not good.
and i agree with rev and shelley, this stuff about joining to get an edge.
give me a break, do you people at track want to sell balls, or play silly secret agent man games???
all shops are paying big bucks for this ball.
release the drill sheets to all pro shops, and maybe tell your tech support people that not everyone can attend a seminar.
as i said before, storm's tech people answer you with respect!!!!
they don't say, " well maybe if you would go to a seminar"
next week, we are going to the "seminar"
will the codes be there??????????????
--------------------
jls, proud watcher of womens golf
Edited on 10/27/2007 8:49 AM
Post by: Atochabsh on October 26, 2007, 07:55:49 PM
However the Rising perked my interest and I decided to bring one in. We could not go to the seminar due to it being during the week during business hours. But I bought one at the premium price not associated with the seminar and wanted to drill it up for myself to give Track a go. I personally have never thrown a Track ball, this pro shop has never carried a Track ball. But when I tried to get "the code", I was told the code was not available. And since the web site has no place for "the code" I guess I can believe that. However I was told to just use the recommended drill. I have used that drill personally a few times unsucessfully, so I really didn't want to do it again. I read into that...."just use the basic drill provided and go away".
Does this make me want to carry Track equipment? No.
Erin
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on October 26, 2007, 11:11:17 PM
I firmly understand the stance that you all hold in how the advanced layouts are being handled. I agree, if my shop was not a Legion Shop I would want to know as well. I would be frustrated.
I also realize that there are many pro shops that do not get online to read the forums here or ther forums at trackbowling.com. I cannot begin to tell you folks how many emails I have gotten daily since the release of the Rising. Rick and myself are busting our butts to help everyone that we can. We have been around long enough that you folks should know that we are here to help in any way possible. If you have a Rising and are going to get it drilled, please...ask us our opinions and we will continue to answer you honestly and with no bias just as we always have. We have information on a couple of the layouts. If you are asking for a reaction that one of those layouts will give you ofcourse we are going to suggest the layout that is going to make you happy or (for the pro shop guys) we are going to suggest the layout that is going to make your customers happy.
We have been doing this for a long time and we have not steered any of you in the wrong direction that I am aware of. We can only offer information that has been released to us.
Please, if you have questions about a layout ofcourse I am going to help you to the best of my ability. churd@trackbowling.com
-Carl
--------------------
Carl Hurd
C-G Pro Shop (owner/operator)
with locations in:
Youngstown Ohio (West Side Lanes)
and
Boardman Ohio (Camelot Lanes)
Track Intl- Tech Support
The Legion Lives @ www.trackbowling.com
Tag Team Member #1
TAG TEAM COACHING!!!!!!/Co-Founder
Post by: revTrex on October 27, 2007, 12:56:56 AM
However, I must ask -- what you are telling us is that, basically, you can't give us the layouts because, 1) you haven't been given permission to do so, and 2) all the layouts haven't been discussed with you yet? Am I correct in saying this?
We really aren't trying to bash, at least I think not. But this does seem incredibly ridiculous, and even you have somewhat admitted that.
You also mention that if we have a Rising, and want a specific reaction, we can ask you how to achieve that reaction. So, ok, I'll play. I have as many Risings as there are possible reactions. I want each one to have a different reaction, so that all my Risings can show all possible "Rising reactions." Which layouts would you suggest for Risings 1-X????
Thanks (and my apologies on the sarcasm).
Post by: jls on October 27, 2007, 09:07:56 AM
second, thanks for your info you gave me on the rising. we are attending the seminar nest week, but since we are drilling some rising's this week, your info helped clear up some confusion.
especially when all of the balls we got had 3-4 or 4-5 pins!!!!
you said they can be drilled, and that they would react just fine. and they did. thanks again!!!
third, as for you drilling multible balls, that is great, so you can indeed pass on the info.
however, please understand, many customers can not really afford to experiment
with different drillings on a $200 ball.
so they expect it right the first time. and if there is certain drillings that
may pertain to this new wieght block, i feel that the pro shops PAYING track big bucks for this ball, deserve that info.
whether or not they join the legion!!!!!
now i was told since we bought the "package", that we are in the "legion"
yet we have no codes!!!!!
when this new guy took over as brand manager, there where more then a few that posted about him. most where not nice. if he is going to play this silly secret agent man stuff. i now can see why!!!
right now there are so many good quality balls on the market. pro shops really
don't need any hassles when it comes to drilling new models. and as you probably well know, that when balls become "non driller friendly" they die!!!
thus the term was born>>>"driller friendly"
maybe this new track brand manager, never heard of that!!!!!!!!!!!!
being a pro shop guy, carl / rick, you probably do know that "MOST" sales made in pro shops, are based on the drillers "recomendations".
there are only a few balls that customers actually come in and ask for.
black widow, black widow pearl, nvs, toxic,
just about all other balls are sold by "recomendation"
this new brand manager keeps playing games with "codes", and more and more shops will ignore this ball.
and that would be a shame>>> cause its a good ball!!!!!!!!!!
tell him to wake up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
stop playing silly code games, release all drilling info to pro shops paying "big bucks" for this ball.
thankyou.
--------------------
jls, proud watcher of womens golf
Post by: jls on October 27, 2007, 10:02:43 AM
quote:
Right now there is three layouts you can place on the rising. The suggested layout that comes on the sheet. Then a pin up layout like you see on the layout sheet for the Kinetic. The other is a trick layout, you must know a bowlers pap to use this layout. Pin to pap is 4", Pin to val is 2", mb to pap is 4" mb to val is 1". This is the trick layout. If you want another layout and your proshop isnt a legion member for the proshop side of the website. You can go join the forums and ask rick or carl for help and get a layout for you. Heck if your proshop wants some other layouts they can do the same.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
carl, i know its early, and i have not yet had my 3 cups of McDonalds coffee,
but this "trick" layout, pin 4" to pap, pin 2" to val, mb to pap is 4", and mb to val 1">>>> sounds kinda sorta familiar.
let me think, while sipping my "McDonalds" premium raost coffee. yes i got it. why it sounds and looks like something i "believe" i saw on a storm drill sheet>>> for like the last 2 years!!!!!!
and this is what we need a code for?????????????????
your kidding me right,
here i thought, since pro shops would need a code, that we where really getting something new. "foolio" on us!!!!!!!
its pretty much in just about every storm highend ball box!!!!
now carl, please don't feel that we are bashing you, cause we are not.
i seriously doublt that this was your brain child idea.
and once again, thanks for the pre seminar advise you gave us!!!!!!
like i said, i blame track!!!!
i 'll bet the storm people will be getting a real laugh out of this!!!!
--------------------
jls, proud watcher of womens golf
Edited on 10/27/2007 10:59 AM
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on October 27, 2007, 11:03:32 AM
Carl put that layout on the rising I got off him and I kept it. Now on most other stuff this layout will take off on the back when you use it on enough oil. For the rising it wont take off. It rolls strong and is very smooth throughout. I like it for shorter THS, the house shot I normaly bowl on it dont work for because they go 45 feet.
I know what you are saying about this layout, because it has been around for a while. Also when carl says he drilled up a few of these balls dont think he is telling you to have your customers try stuff out. He did what he did with a few of these so he could get a real firm grasp on the balls layout abilitys. This way he could tell us, (even me included seeing how this this is still kinda new to me), how to lay them out if asked and be able to get the reaction the customer is lookign for.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: jls on October 27, 2007, 11:37:46 AM
quote:
JLS,
Carl put that layout on the rising I got off him and I kept it. Now on most other stuff this layout will take off on the back when you use it on enough oil. For the rising it wont take off. It rolls strong and is very smooth throughout. I like it for shorter THS, the house shot I normaly bowl on it dont work for because they go 45 feet.
I know what you are saying about this layout, because it has been around for a while. Also when carl says he drilled up a few of these balls dont think he is telling you to have your customers try stuff out. He did what he did with a few of these so he could get a real firm grasp on the balls layout abilitys. This way he could tell us, (even me included seeing how this this is still kinda new to me), how to lay them out if asked and be able to get the reaction the customer is lookign for.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
mark, of course we don't think that it what carl is saying. we know a ball tester must try out different layouts.
what we are saying is this.
stop all this code crap, give the pro shops any info on drilling that may help them with their customers!!!!!
one pro shop asked for help and is told " go to a seminar".
another pro shop just posted and said he went to a seminar, NO CODES.
go to the web site and get a code and unlock>>> what???
and then Carl post one of the so called drillings, and its been in Each and every STORM highend ball box for at least 2 years!!!!
are you people at trck enjoying making foolio's out of pro shops????
its not funny mark / carl / rick.
its silly, stupid and irritating.
and its an insult to pro shops.
now once again, carl/rick/mark, we are not bashing you or blaming you for this childish game the new brand manager of track is playing.
and thanks again Carl for your help.
what a shame all this crap is going on.
its a great ball!!!!!!
--------------------
jls, proud watcher of womens golf
Edited on 10/29/2007 9:53 AM
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on October 27, 2007, 02:05:45 PM
Second I dont know who said you get a code for going to the seminar, but when we went the 24th you didnt get a code. You get a code if you buy one of the fast track packages. The price of the package is not going to break the shop. The one package is 3 balls, a Temper, Kinetic, and a Rising for $240. Tell me how this will break a shop to get the code. Now the thing is 95% of the people who bowl can use the layout that is given on the sheet. This layout will do something completly differrent then it would on any other ball. Dont worry about the pin distance. I have the layout on a rising that has a 5" pin. If you have a PAP that is lower then 4 1/2" to the right when you place the pin 1 inch above the midline place it one inch left of the grip line. If you have a PAP that is over 5" place the pin 1" right of the grip line. This was stated at the seminar to a proshop who asked ron. He said that the ideal is to keep the pin 1 inch above the midline but keep the pin around the 4-4 1/2" away from the val area. This will allow for the most overall hook and ball motion. Most ball the leverage are is 3 3/8" but not on this ball.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: revTrex on October 27, 2007, 03:40:03 PM
1) Why should we have to pay for a package (and, as a result, the ball) to get information related to the ball? Does this make sense?
2) Can someone please explain how leverage on The Rising isn't 3 3/8? How does this work?
Thanks.
Post by: stormed1 on October 27, 2007, 06:31:35 PM
Post by: jhutch769 on October 27, 2007, 06:35:22 PM
By the way, noticed, half way though the first game, the bridge was cracked.. didn't even have 5 games on it yet..
Edited on 10/27/2007 9:35 PM
Post by: 302efi on October 28, 2007, 12:04:15 AM
quote:
By the way, noticed, half way though the first game, the bridge was cracked.. didn't even have 5 games on it yet..
Welcome to the wonderful world of Ebonite made balls !
Enjoy your stay !
The bad part is, since its the bridge that cracked, Track will say it was the driller that messed up !
--------------------
Roto-Grip
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on October 28, 2007, 12:19:50 AM
Nobody said the customer had to buy a package. The shop should by a package deal, because it is in fact a deal. You get three balls none that should sell fo under $130, for only $240. I mean that is the one package and that is a deal. I dear you to find a better one out there where each ball could really sell under the high price point.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: revTrex on October 28, 2007, 12:28:37 AM
I still want to know about the leverage comment. How is leverage not equal to 3 3/8" on the Rising?
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on October 28, 2007, 05:56:47 PM
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: Atochabsh on October 29, 2007, 02:01:51 PM
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, noticed, half way though the first game, the bridge was cracked.. didn't even have 5 games on it yet..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to the wonderful world of Ebonite made balls !
Enjoy your stay !
I've used a lot of Ebonite equipment and have never had a cracked bridge. In fact, I've used mostly Ebonite, but also a few Morich and Columbias and never had a cracked bridge. But then I've always used the same driller.
Erin
Post by: shelley on October 29, 2007, 02:04:33 PM
quote:
For the info on leverage not being 3 3/8 you would have to ask Ron H. That is what he said when he was asked is Leverage was still 3 3/8. He said no it is 4 on this ball and that is why the layout they give on the sheet is given.
That must be why the pin is 1" up from grip center. The Rising actually changes your PAP to be just under 4" over with no vertical component. What a ball!
SH
Post by: tenpinspro on October 29, 2007, 03:29:42 PM
My superiors have been informed of all your concerns and our 3 recommended layouts "will" be posted very soon and available to everyone on trackbowling.com
In regards to the trick layouts, we are working feverishly to ensure that reaction is consistent for everyone. We will not and cannot release this information until we are satisfied with the data. This ball is truly different....
Please feel free to ask Carl or myself for any layout assistance on trackbowling.com Thank you very much for your feedback, we still do listen and are trying our best to do the "right" thing for our bowlers.
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl - Tech Support
Vise Inserts Staff
Dexter Advisory Staff
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
Post by: revTrex on October 29, 2007, 03:42:49 PM
Rick, thanks! Do you know anything about leverage being different on the Rising? How can it NOT be 3 3/8"???
Post by: jls on October 29, 2007, 04:10:44 PM
quote:
^^^
Rick, thanks! Do you know anything about leverage being different on the Rising? How can it NOT be 3 3/8"???
revtrex, two additional drillings are now listed on track's web site.
we used one of them last week on a rising. it was a monster!!!!
--------------------
jls, proud watcher of womens golf
Post by: revTrex on October 29, 2007, 04:17:23 PM
Now, I have to ask...when might we really see the "wild" or "exotic" layouts possible with the Rising? You know, the full use of the 360?
Not that I want to make a big deal about this...just wonderin'
Post by: tenpinspro on October 29, 2007, 04:25:12 PM
quote:
^^^
Rick, thanks! Do you know anything about leverage being different on the Rising? How can it NOT be 3 3/8"???
Scientifically, it boils down to the contour rings and shape of movement. It truly is different once we push mass bias past .030 (saw it on CAD), it's not the same. Symmetrical movement is even and consistent, right? We can picture that....asymmetrical balls became elipitical in movement.
However, this ball does something completely different and unique due to its core and cover strength.
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl - Tech Support
Vise Inserts Staff
Dexter Advisory Staff
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
Post by: revTrex on October 29, 2007, 05:21:33 PM
Am I getting this right, or completely missing the point?
On edit: If I am right, that the large (past .30) MB changes the leverage pin-PAP distance, will this distance continue to change on even higher MB balls? Let's say it was .035...would it move up to like 4.05 inches rather than 4.0? Is there any way to predict these sort of things, or introduce drillers to this new thinking (if I am right, of course)?
Edited on 10/29/2007 5:31 PM
Post by: tenpinspro on October 29, 2007, 05:42:00 PM
quote:
Alright, that kind of makes sense, Rick. So what you are saying is that the ball achieves maximum flare at a different pin-PAP distance due to a large enough mass bias...in other words...if an asymmetrical rotates more and more in an elliptical path, the mass bias and core geometry is now large enough/designed to exaggerate this change to a noticeable level?
Am I getting this right, or completely missing the point?
On edit: If I am right, that the large (past .30) MB changes the leverage pin-PAP distance, will this distance continue to change on even higher MB balls? Let's say it was .035...would it move up to like 4.05 inches rather than 4.0? Is there any way to predict these sort of things, or introduce drillers to this new thinking (if I am right, of course)?
Edited on 10/29/2007 5:31 PM
Hey rev,
You are definitely on the right path, even I don't know what's going to happen with .035-.040, my major was not physics....I was in CS and accounting. But what I am seeing and understanding in the business is that core weight and strength must present some type of balance or else our mb diff would/could end up overpowering our core, right?
On edit: great discussion btw, thanks rev and everyone.....
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl - Tech Support
Vise Inserts Staff
Dexter Advisory Staff
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
Edited on 10/29/2007 5:50 PM
Edited on 10/29/2007 5:56 PM
Post by: revTrex on October 29, 2007, 05:59:02 PM
Post by: tenpinspro on October 29, 2007, 06:35:18 PM
quote:
Thanks for the info, Rick. Granted, my current major isn't physics either, so...the literature and philosophy guy here will be hard at work thinking about this some more, and maybe asking a few friends.
You HAVE two new friends....Carl and myself...anytime guys. The Tag Team is always here.....
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl - Tech Support
Vise Inserts Staff
Dexter Advisory Staff
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
Edited on 10/29/2007 6:36 PM
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on October 29, 2007, 09:21:54 PM
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: revTrex on October 29, 2007, 09:36:22 PM
Mo's next release pushes the MB to .035...weird motions, eh?
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on October 29, 2007, 09:43:27 PM
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on October 29, 2007, 11:17:06 PM
Now, this is not saying that 4 inches is leverage.....3 3/8 is leverage. What this is saying is the 4 inches from PAP gives the best overall motion compared to different pin to pap distances.
These contour planes are also the reason that you get identical ball reaction when you shift the MB 180. This was discussed earlier in this thread when I said I wanted to SEE it for myself. I always want to test things...not just for my knowledge....but so I can also get that knowledge to pro shops and bowlers alike. Remember....often times I drill 3-4 for one ball so I can give an honest thought of the ball with a layout like that or simliar.
The trick layouts will be on the website available for everyone. The powers that be realized that this was a mistake and have elected to change their original thought process. Once again we (Track Bowling) are doing what the people want.
I understand the frustration that everyone voiced, and honestly I would have felt the same way. I hold no hard feelings and hope that you all feel the same way.
This technology is something folks, and it can do nothing but good things for the future of bowling equipment.
-Carl
--------------------
Carl Hurd
C-G Pro Shop (owner/operator)
with locations in:
Youngstown Ohio (West Side Lanes)
and
Boardman Ohio (Camelot Lanes)
Track Intl- Tech Support
The Legion Lives @ www.trackbowling.com
Tag Team Member #1
TAG TEAM COACHING!!!!!!/Co-Founder
Post by: jls on October 30, 2007, 11:20:30 AM
layout? pin 1" above grip center line.
if so, any feedback?
thankyou
--------------------
jls, proud watcher of womens golf
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on October 30, 2007, 11:41:13 AM
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: jls on October 30, 2007, 11:48:51 AM
quote:
Yes my rising with the suggested layout had a 5" pin. I drilled it and to get it legal all I needed was a weight hole on my midline,7/8 bit 2" deep. Brought it back to legal side to side. I had no problem with finger to thumb.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
mark, i meant, how does the ball react.
thanks
--------------------
jls, proud watcher of womens golf
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on October 30, 2007, 12:15:05 PM
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: Djarum on October 30, 2007, 12:30:44 PM
quote:
shelley,
I have 2 Risings drilled identical....the first one I drilled in Hoptown when rick and I visited in June and the other I drilled in August. The one from Hoptown has the suggested layout of pin 1 inch up in palm, but the MB was swung 180* from where it would be on the suggested layout. The other one has the pin in the same spot but the MB where the drill sheet shows it. These 2 balls react identical to eachother. I have to admit that I was a bit skeptical, thus the reason I did this test on my own.
-Carl
--------------------
Carl Hurd
C-G Pro Shop (owner/operator)
with locations in:
Youngstown Ohio (West Side Lanes)
and
Boardman Ohio (Camelot Lanes)
Track Intl- Tech Support
The Legion Lives @ www.trackbowling.com
Tag Team Member #1
TAG TEAM COACHING!!!!!!/Co-Founder
So how is this different than say a brunswick zone? Their assyms have a stretched core, so there is MB on both sides of the ball. I would imagine if you flipped the core 180 degrees, you end up with the same drilling?
Dj
--------------------
The views and opinions of Djarum expressed on BallReviews.com do not necessarily state or reflect those of the BallReviews.com.
Edited on 10/30/2007 12:48 PM
Post by: tenpinspro on October 30, 2007, 01:59:55 PM
quote:
So how is this different than say a brunswick zone? Their assyms have a stretched core, so there is MB on both sides of the ball. I would imagine if you flipped the core 180 degrees, you end up with the same drilling?
Dj
Hey Dj, remember my coffee cup analogy where the handle represents mass bias? Standard mass bias balls still look like this (so to speak).
"Now" our Rising has two handles. We can achieve symmetry or asymmetry dependent upon placement. Hope this helps some bud....
On edit: Our handles are also MUCH bigger now....
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl - Tech Support
Vise Inserts Staff
Dexter Advisory Staff
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
Edited on 10/30/2007 2:10 PM
Post by: Djarum on October 30, 2007, 02:34:25 PM
quote:quote:
So how is this different than say a brunswick zone? Their assyms have a stretched core, so there is MB on both sides of the ball. I would imagine if you flipped the core 180 degrees, you end up with the same drilling?
Dj
Hey Dj, remember my coffee cup analogy where the handle represents mass bias? Standard mass bias balls still look like this (so to speak).
"Now" our Rising has two handles. We can achieve symmetry or asymmetry dependent upon placement. Hope this helps some bud....
On edit: Our handles are also MUCH bigger now....
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl - Tech Support
Vise Inserts Staff
Dexter Advisory Staff
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
Edited on 10/30/2007 2:10 PM
The only way that this would work is if the two handles were equal to each other and opposite to each other. If you flip it around, it doesn't matter. (Big B stretched zone core). If the two handles weren't equal to each other, and weren't opposite each other, then I don't see how flipping the handles around gives the same reaction.
At best I can tell from the rising core, I'm not sure how this is possible. If we take the core, and we put a face on each side of the core 90 degrees from each other, most assyms have three identicle faces and one that is different. Usually this is where the larger portion of weight is. If you look at the zone stretched core, there are two identicle faces, but what makes this ball assym is that the identicle faces are 180 degrees from each other(or on the same axis) and the other face of the core is 90 degrees from the non-identicle, or on another axis.
The rising, best I can make from the picture, has 3 unique faces. One face is duplicated 180 degrees, or on the same axis. The other two faces are different.
Dj
--------------------
The views and opinions of Djarum expressed on BallReviews.com do not necessarily state or reflect those of the BallReviews.com.
Post by: tenpinspro on October 30, 2007, 03:22:06 PM
quote:
The only way that this would work is if the two handles were equal to each other and opposite to each other. If you flip it around, it doesn't matter.
Bingo!....That's how our 360 technology works. At opposite polar ends, we have the same mass bias strength...so regardless of where cg falls, we can maneuver the ball to drill accordingly for the bowler.
Now, I always appreciate science and technology (HD tv,phones,Ipods...etc) but let's please keep in mind that we are all only human beings (we all bleed red)...we all make mistakes with whatever we do at some time or another. Even if I nail a layout, will the bowler execute? I don't know....
Dj, if you have other questions or concerns, please contact Ron Hickland. He's our madman, I just know what layouts work for certain bowlers and what doesn't. I'm still just a bowler at heart....thanks for the ear guys.
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl - Tech Support
Vise Inserts Staff
Dexter Advisory Staff
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
Post by: DP3 on October 30, 2007, 03:47:24 PM
--------------------
-DJ Marshall
...The Twelve In a Row Pro Shop
Post by: Djarum on October 30, 2007, 04:32:56 PM
quote:quote:
The only way that this would work is if the two handles were equal to each other and opposite to each other. If you flip it around, it doesn't matter.
Bingo!....That's how our 360 technology works. At opposite polar ends, we have the same mass bias strength...so regardless of where cg falls, we can maneuver the ball to drill accordingly for the bowler.
Now, I always appreciate science and technology (HD tv,phones,Ipods...etc) but let's please keep in mind that we are all only human beings (we all bleed red)...we all make mistakes with whatever we do at some time or another. Even if I nail a layout, will the bowler execute? I don't know....
Dj, if you have other questions or concerns, please contact Ron Hickland. He's our madman, I just know what layouts work for certain bowlers and what doesn't. I'm still just a bowler at heart....thanks for the ear guys.
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl - Tech Support
Vise Inserts Staff
Dexter Advisory Staff
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
I agree with this, but, in your coffee cup example, if you draw a line through the handles, there is another line line perpindicular to the cup on the sides without the handles. In this case, both sides are the same. But if you look at the rising core, both sides are not the same. If you run a line through the sides of the core on the rising that are the same, the other two sides are slightly different. That means that depending on where you drill the ball, depends on which side you are drilling into, which would change ball reaction.
Dj
--------------------
The views and opinions of Djarum expressed on BallReviews.com do not necessarily state or reflect those of the BallReviews.com.
Post by: tenpinspro on October 30, 2007, 04:35:34 PM
quote:
By no means am I downing this release, but we must also realize that this is only a bowling ball, no matter what type of technology is in there. It's not a magic bullet that's going to recover from out of bounds, and there's no magic layout that is all of a sudden going to turn you into Wes Malott overnight. What is is, is a strong arcing solid made for the heavier side of medium conditions with a mass bias strength strong enough to give you a few options on fine tuning your breakpoint. The more we bicker and gripe over the smallest things such as an extra layout or two that may not even pertain to your style of play, the harder we make this simple game become.
--------------------
-DJ Marshall
...The Twelve In a Row Pro Shop
Hey dp, I'd normally agree with you but until you guys try this ball, it truly "is" something different. If all cores were 5 or 5ish in weight, how can 7+ not make a difference? THAT'S half of the ball weight...(on a 15)
best comment...minimum bob who I bowled against Friday..."this ball even makes it look like you have hand"....lol.....and it did, 3 practice shots...and went +58 off the gate.....
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl - Tech Support
Vise Inserts Staff
Dexter Advisory Staff
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
Post by: tenpinspro on October 30, 2007, 04:55:07 PM
quote:
agree with this, but, in your coffee cup example, if you draw a line through the handles, there is another line line perpindicular to the cup on the sides without the handles. In this case, both sides are the same. But if you look at the rising core, both sides are not the same. If you run a line through the sides of the core on the rising that are the same, the other two sides are slightly different. That means that depending on where you drill the ball, depends on which side you are drilling into, which would change ball reaction.=
Very good bro but we're pushing limits now and Ron H can answer this easier and better for you...again(my major was not physics, don't claim to be), I just understand reactions and offer layouts to what will work best for our bowlers from being in the business over 20+ years....I still seek out carpenters/contracters who have to show me where studs are....but this is what I do.
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl - Tech Support
Vise Inserts Staff
Dexter Advisory Staff
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
Edited on 10/30/2007 4:59 PM
Post by: tenpinspro on October 30, 2007, 05:13:34 PM
quote:
Rick..can't wait to get my hands on one....just got busy with classes/exams..
And one day I'll have hand like Mini Bob!!
--------------------Tag Team Coaching Success Story
got one for you too bro....your choice, Kinetic or Rising?....muhauhua
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl - Tech Support
Vise Inserts Staff
Dexter Advisory Staff
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
Edited on 10/30/2007 5:16 PM
Post by: DP3 on October 30, 2007, 05:17:09 PM
quote:
Hey dp, I'd normally agree with you but until you guys try this ball, it truly "is" something different. If all cores were 5 or 5ish in weight, how can 7+ not make a difference? THAT'S half of the ball weight...(on a 15)
best comment...minimum bob who I bowled against Friday..."this ball even makes it look like you have hand"....lol.....and it did, 3 practice shots...and went +58 off the gate.....
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Normally I'd agree with you too, but since you are a Track staffer and have been for a long time, as a trained eye, I'm not sure what much more I can see out of this ball over an Epic Odyssey or LevRG. Since you have been using these balls since the test balls in the summer I'm sure you are impressed, but on the other side you haven't thrown other companies balls either that are close to this one. The ball has sparked my interest and I'd love to attend the seminars for the great deals, I just don't have the time. I'm a big believer in coverstock matchup being the slight majority of reaction, and core numbers(not shape), and finally layout being the other significant factor to make the overall percentage of ball reaction. I'm not downing your product, as I'm sure alot of R&D has went into it, I guess I just have to wait and throw it for myself before I speak on it further.
--------------------
-DJ Marshall
...The Twelve In a Row Pro Shop
Post by: tenpinspro on October 30, 2007, 06:28:38 PM
quote:
Since you have been using these balls since the test balls in the summer I'm sure you are impressed, but on the other side you haven't thrown other companies balls either that are close to this one.
You sure about that? Carl and I have received so many balls to test...it's not funny. This is how I taught Carl to get into the business....we test from worldwide to ensure our reactions.....TRACK is back!
yes. we market.....doesn't everybody? If they don't.....they're behind. But we stand behind what we state and will live by it....
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl - Tech Support
Vise Inserts Staff
Dexter Advisory Staff
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
Edited on 10/30/2007 11:30 PM
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on October 30, 2007, 11:14:49 PM
quote:
Normally I'd agree with you too, but since you are a Track staffer and have been for a long time, as a trained eye, I'm not sure what much more I can see out of this ball over an Epic Odyssey or LevRG.
Funny you should mention these 2 balls, I own both of them and have tested them side by side with the Rising.
The Odyssey and the LevRG are both good bowling balls, other companies "oilers" so to speak. The rising is our oiler. The Rising hangs with both of these very well when it comes to oil handling ability. They are all very close.................the one thing to remember is that the Rising is at 4000abralon. It hooks right along with the Odyessey (2000 abralon) and the LevRG (1000grit). So there is a big difference in the surface prep on all of these balls. I cannot honestly imagine the strength of the Rising if I were to take it to 1000.
-Carl
--------------------
Carl Hurd
C-G Pro Shop (owner/operator)
with locations in:
Youngstown Ohio (West Side Lanes)
and
Boardman Ohio (Camelot Lanes)
Track Intl- Tech Support
The Legion Lives @ www.trackbowling.com
Tag Team Member #1
TAG TEAM COACHING!!!!!!/Co-Founder
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on October 31, 2007, 12:06:27 AM
quote:
If I ever thought I might try this ball, all of this talk about the drillings, wrong drillings, secret drillings, and etc. has scared me away from considering this ball. If it is that difficult to drill right for a person, then I will never be interested in it because I have enough of a problem with wrong drillings on a normal ball, let alone something complicated like the Rising.
AND this is the reason that we are suggesting people to drill the ball with the suggested layout because it is simple and it gives the best overall ball motion.
Myself, Scoot and a friend of ours shot some vids tonight, I am hoping he is able to get them online for all to view.
-Carl
--------------------
Carl Hurd
C-G Pro Shop (owner/operator)
with locations in:
Youngstown Ohio (West Side Lanes)
and
Boardman Ohio (Camelot Lanes)
Track Intl- Tech Support
The Legion Lives @ www.trackbowling.com
Tag Team Member #1
TAG TEAM COACHING!!!!!!/Co-Founder
Post by: DP3 on October 31, 2007, 12:23:37 AM
quote:quote:
Normally I'd agree with you too, but since you are a Track staffer and have been for a long time, as a trained eye, I'm not sure what much more I can see out of this ball over an Epic Odyssey or LevRG.
Funny you should mention these 2 balls, I own both of them and have tested them side by side with the Rising.
The Odyssey and the LevRG are both good bowling balls, other companies "oilers" so to speak. The rising is our oiler. The Rising hangs with both of these very well when it comes to oil handling ability. They are all very close.................the one thing to remember is that the Rising is at 4000abralon. It hooks right along with the Odyessey (2000 abralon) and the LevRG (1000grit). So there is a big difference in the surface prep on all of these balls. I cannot honestly imagine the strength of the Rising if I were to take it to 1000.
-Carl
Thanks for the fair and honest comparison.
--------------------
-DJ Marshall
...The Twelve In a Row Pro Shop
Post by: ambi1 on October 31, 2007, 01:37:21 AM
quote:
This is why I said past .035. .035 is the buffer area on the understanding reaction. Heck if they understood the reaction on the strength I remember hearing fromd Del that with the Robo Core from the machine line, that he was able to push its MB rating up close to around .048 or something. If it was all about having the strongest MB rating he could have done it. Like I said up past .040 things start to look goofy.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Hm.. would this be similar to putting mercury in the ball. Knew someone who put that in his ball. (days of Urethane and wooden lanes) ball was wobbling like crazy... LOL!!!
--------------------
DARK BEER IT IS THEN!
Post by: tenpinspro on October 31, 2007, 02:17:25 AM
quote:
Hm.. would this be similar to putting mercury in the ball. Knew someone who put that in his ball. (days of Urethane and wooden lanes) ball was wobbling like crazy... LOL!!!-------------------
Very good ambi....now you guys are getting the big picture.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
dp3, I also like the Odyssey (nice piece as well) but I only drilled one LevRG and didn't get to see it.
Everyone is now asking us what is better? Cadillac, Lincoln, Acura or Lexus. I don't know....
Tag Team has "never" diverted from the truth and we "never" will but when we say a piece is "nice"....it is. We're still bowlers at heart...thank you guys.
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl - Tech Support
Vise Inserts Staff
Dexter Advisory Staff
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
Post by: RealBowler on October 31, 2007, 07:56:45 AM
quote:
It was stated to the pro shops during the trade shows that the shops that sign up for one of our packages would get access to the pro shop side of the site. This was Paul's idea to give the shops that belong to the Legion an edge.
-Carl
--------------------
Carl Hurd
C-G Pro Shop (owner/operator)
with locations in:
Youngstown Ohio (West Side Lanes)
and
Boardman Ohio (Camelot Lanes)
Track Intl- Tech Support
The Legion Lives @ www.trackbowling.com
Tag Team Member #1
TAG TEAM COACHING!!!!!!/Co-Founder
Chalk up another one for the genius that is the Fig!
Ebonite may want to rethink that decision. Wasn't it Fig that lead to AMF not renewing their PBA registration because "winning tournaments and making shows doesn't sell balls"? AMF made and won many shows with the TNT and Velocity series balls and failed to capitalize on that success.......brilliant!
My take on this whole Rising thing is that its been a whole lot of hype, confusion, and whole lot of disappointment!
All you guys did was come here and talk about how it was going to revolutionize bowling. The release was going to be delayed because the ball had to be manufactured to some super strict specifications and "we're going to make sure it is perfect before we release it....be patient....this ball is SOOOO different and will be SOOOO great. Track is going to turn the bowling world on it's edge!"
All this crap and then they release the drilling sheet in DOC format? Too difficult to convert to a standard HTML page or even PDF?
Of the 3 releases, the Rising is the least attractive to me. Kinetic and Temper look great.
--------------------
Haywood
**************************
I don't need a stupid
signature. This is enough.
**************************
Post by: RealBowler on October 31, 2007, 08:02:49 AM
quote:quote:
Normally I'd agree with you too, but since you are a Track staffer and have been for a long time, as a trained eye, I'm not sure what much more I can see out of this ball over an Epic Odyssey or LevRG.
Funny you should mention these 2 balls, I own both of them and have tested them side by side with the Rising.
The Odyssey and the LevRG are both good bowling balls, other companies "oilers" so to speak. The rising is our oiler. The Rising hangs with both of these very well when it comes to oil handling ability. They are all very close.................the one thing to remember is that the Rising is at 4000abralon. It hooks right along with the Odyessey (2000 abralon) and the LevRG (1000grit). So there is a big difference in the surface prep on all of these balls. I cannot honestly imagine the strength of the Rising if I were to take it to 1000.
-Carl
--------------------
Carl Hurd
C-G Pro Shop (owner/operator)
with locations in:
Youngstown Ohio (West Side Lanes)
and
Boardman Ohio (Camelot Lanes)
Track Intl- Tech Support
The Legion Lives @ www.trackbowling.com
Tag Team Member #1
TAG TEAM COACHING!!!!!!/Co-Founder
Not a big fan of these "oilers" coming at 4000 grit. If I need to tame it down a little, what are my options? Realistically, putting it at something like 1000-2000 gives everybody more options. Need more surface? No problems, take it to 600-800. Need more length? No problems, take it up to 2000, 2500, or 4000.
--------------------
Haywood
**************************
I don't need a stupid
signature. This is enough.
**************************
Post by: RealBowler on October 31, 2007, 08:09:17 AM
quote:
The fact is most shops (MOST), dont even take into account the customers PAP when they layout a ball or use a drill sheet layout. The layout given on the drill sheet will work for 95% of the bowlers out there. The slight move left for those with lower tracks or a val/pap that is under the 4" mark or the move right for those further then 5" will make the suggested layout work for them. If your bowler rolls the ball more but is in the 95% area just add some polish. Most bowlers (MOST) dont keep a ball consistantly at box anyway. They let the ball get dirty or polish it.
Nobody said the customer had to buy a package. The shop should by a package deal, because it is in fact a deal. You get three balls none that should sell fo under $130, for only $240. I mean that is the one package and that is a deal. I dear you to find a better one out there where each ball could really sell under the high price point.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Wow, did you even read what you wrote?
First you say that MOST shops don't drill using a bowler's PAP. Then you say to move it right if the PAP is less than 4" or move it right if the PAP is more than 5".
If the shop doesn't use the PAP to begin with, how are they going to know to shift it left or right?
You seem to be suggesting that 95% of bowlers have a PAP between 4 and 5". I'm far from a good bowler, but I consider myself "average" and my PAP is outside of that range.
--------------------
Haywood
**************************
I don't need a stupid
signature. This is enough.
**************************
Post by: DP3 on October 31, 2007, 10:31:00 AM
quote:quote:
Hm.. would this be similar to putting mercury in the ball. Knew someone who put that in his ball. (days of Urethane and wooden lanes) ball was wobbling like crazy... LOL!!!-------------------
Very good ambi....now you guys are getting the big picture.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
dp3, I also like the Odyssey (nice piece as well) but I only drilled one LevRG and didn't get to see it.
Everyone is now asking us what is better? Cadillac, Lincoln, Acura or Lexus. I don't know....
"You know, it's like someone saying Licoln is better than a Cadillac.....FUHGETABOUTIT"
--------------------
-DJ Marshall
...The Twelve In a Row Pro Shop
Hyattsville, MD
Post by: pba6285 on October 31, 2007, 10:39:10 AM
I attended the seminar in Marietta GA Yesterday. The seminar was fairly informative. I have no problem with a company locking their vault so to say. If you opt not to be a member of their "club" etc then why should you get the same benefit as a member.
However, when I threw the ball I took 4 shots and put it away. If I want an agressive ball to point off the corner, I'll pick up my Vibe. I wish I had brought a ball of my own to compare it to, but this thing didn't impress me. The balls I got from the seminar will be out on the shelf and will probably sit there for a while.
Rick Oelkers
Rick's Pro Shop
www.ricksproshop.com
--------------------
Pro Shop Operators, Join the Yahoo Groups Pro Shop Group (http://"http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/BowlingProShops/join")
Edited on 10/31/2007 10:40 AM
Post by: jls on October 31, 2007, 10:41:20 AM
quote:
If I ever thought I might try this ball, all of this talk about the drillings, wrong drillings, secret drillings, and etc. has scared me away from considering this ball. If it is that difficult to drill right for a person, then I will never be interested in it because I have enough of a problem with wrong drillings on a normal ball, let alone something complicated like the Rising.
completely the opposite.
it is not diffulcult to drill, actually very easy. once one gets past all the hype!!!! just drill it according to the drill sheet, especially if you have one with a shorter pin, or if you have one with a longer pin and low top weight.
if not, then use either of the two drillings on their web site.
the ball is a monster, put all the B.S. hype aisde. and drill one up.
you won't be sorry!!!!!
on longer pins, we have use a pin above the finger layout, mb 45 degrees.
or a 4" to the pap, with the mb at 45 degrees.
both hook and give new meaning to the term "backend"
so far we have not done the pin under the fingers layout on a long pin, due to the top weight being too high.
the ball is a monster.
and so far, they have all been left with the box finish>> 4000 pad.
this morning i will be drilling one for a customer and adjusting the cover down to 1000.
this guy has speed.
--------------------
jls, proud watcher of womens golf
Edited on 10/31/2007 10:45 AM
Post by: shelley on October 31, 2007, 10:48:36 AM
quote:quote:AND this is the reason that we are suggesting people to drill the ball with the suggested layout because it is simple and it gives the best overall ball motion.
If I ever thought I might try this ball, all of this talk about the drillings, wrong drillings, secret drillings, and etc. has scared me away from considering this ball. If it is that difficult to drill right for a person, then I will never be interested in it because I have enough of a problem with wrong drillings on a normal ball, let alone something complicated like the Rising.
With every other strong asymmetric from every company, including Track (Rules, Machines), it has been repeated on this board that your driller has to know what he's doing. He's got to take into account the bowler's PAP when laying out the ball. It's crucial.
With this ball, no PAP is required. Completely flies in the face of every other driller, every company (including Track, though this is the same "Track" in name only). And in six months, when the next new ball is out, this will be "oh, just throw your favorite asymmetric layout on it". If that's not the case, I'll send you a dollar.
SH
Post by: jls on October 31, 2007, 10:58:46 AM
quote:quote:quote:AND this is the reason that we are suggesting people to drill the ball with the suggested layout because it is simple and it gives the best overall ball motion.
If I ever thought I might try this ball, all of this talk about the drillings, wrong drillings, secret drillings, and etc. has scared me away from considering this ball. If it is that difficult to drill right for a person, then I will never be interested in it because I have enough of a problem with wrong drillings on a normal ball, let alone something complicated like the Rising.
With every other strong asymmetric from every company, including Track (Rules, Machines), it has been repeated on this board that your driller has to know what he's doing. He's got to take into account the bowler's PAP when laying out the ball. It's crucial.
With this ball, no PAP is required. Completely flies in the face of every other driller, every company (including Track, though this is the same "Track" in name only). And in six months, when the next new ball is out, this will be "oh, just throw your favorite asymmetric layout on it". If that's not the case, I'll send you a dollar.
SH
shelley, way too much salt in your diet again.
good thing today is wed. and the natalie show is on tonight!!!
now back to the ball.
so far we have done several pin above the finger layouts, as well as pin under the fingers.
basically you can call these 5 to 5 1/2" to the pap.
one of the customers with this drilling has posted the following.
289 in one league, then 279 and a 759 series in another league.
a 4 pin, and a 10 pin cost him the 300's, plus the waitress with the big ems.
but he was last seen smiling all the way to the bank!!!!!
the ball is a monster!!!
now if you are going to use the the drilling that puts the pin 4" to the pap and the mb at 45 degrees, i would say knowing the pap is important.
but if the pap is unknown, then drilling the ball according to their drill sheet poses no problem at all.
if your girl Natalie was nude on lane 17, and this guy was bowling on lane 19.
no one would have noticed her!!!!!
the ball is a monster.
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jls, proud watcher of womens golf
Edited on 10/31/2007 11:47 AM
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on October 31, 2007, 12:29:45 PM
quote:
Chalk up another one for the genius that is the Fig!
Ebonite may want to rethink that decision. Wasn't it Fig that lead to AMF not renewing their PBA registration because "winning tournaments and making shows doesn't sell balls"? AMF made and won many shows with the TNT and Velocity series balls and failed to capitalize on that success.......brilliant!
My take on this whole Rising thing is that its been a whole lot of hype, confusion, and whole lot of disappointment!
All you guys did was come here and talk about how it was going to revolutionize bowling. The release was going to be delayed because the ball had to be manufactured to some super strict specifications and "we're going to make sure it is perfect before we release it....be patient....this ball is SOOOO different and will be SOOOO great. Track is going to turn the bowling world on it's edge!"
All this crap and then they release the drilling sheet in DOC format? Too difficult to convert to a standard HTML page or even PDF?
Of the 3 releases, the Rising is the least attractive to me. Kinetic and Temper look great.
I do not think you read where that has since been changed.
I want to add to the reason the layout for the Rising is as stated. When we were traveling to different Trade Shows, including Bowl Expo....when we asked pro shops if they check EVERY bowler's PAP, axis tilt, axis rotation, ball speed etc.....there were VERY few that could say they checked it for EVERY bowler. The key word is EVERY. In no way are we telling people to disregard PAP. What we are telling people is that with the #1 layout the ball will perform the best.
-Carl
--------------------
Carl Hurd
C-G Pro Shop (owner/operator)
with locations in:
Youngstown Ohio (West Side Lanes)
and
Boardman Ohio (Camelot Lanes)
Track Intl- Tech Support
The Legion Lives @ www.trackbowling.com
Tag Team Member #1
TAG TEAM COACHING!!!!!!/Co-Founder
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on October 31, 2007, 12:31:09 PM
quote:quote:
The fact is most shops (MOST), dont even take into account the customers PAP when they layout a ball or use a drill sheet layout. The layout given on the drill sheet will work for 95% of the bowlers out there. The slight move left for those with lower tracks or a val/pap that is under the 4" mark or the move right for those further then 5" will make the suggested layout work for them. If your bowler rolls the ball more but is in the 95% area just add some polish. Most bowlers (MOST) dont keep a ball consistantly at box anyway. They let the ball get dirty or polish it.
Nobody said the customer had to buy a package. The shop should by a package deal, because it is in fact a deal. You get three balls none that should sell fo under $130, for only $240. I mean that is the one package and that is a deal. I dear you to find a better one out there where each ball could really sell under the high price point.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Wow, did you even read what you wrote?
First you say that MOST shops don't drill using a bowler's PAP. Then you say to move it right if the PAP is less than 4" or move it right if the PAP is more than 5".
If the shop doesn't use the PAP to begin with, how are they going to know to shift it left or right?
You seem to be suggesting that 95% of bowlers have a PAP between 4 and 5". I'm far from a good bowler, but I consider myself "average" and my PAP is outside of that range.
--------------------
Haywood
**************************
I don't need a stupid
signature. This is enough.
**************************
You didnt read what I wrote. The above words I used are bigger and bolder. So befor you take a shot at a post make sure you read it and understand what was wrote. This is also why the suggested layout was given because there is such a big target area that it will work and give the ideal reaction for. The other thing is, if the proshop doesnt drill after knowning you PAP that is the shops fault if the ball doesnt work right. To many people blame a company or a ball for being stupid if the suggested layout doesnt work. To many proshops dont look for PAPs when they drill a ball. They normaly just pick one of the pictures on the drill sheet and match it. That is why this layout was given because it hits such a large mass of the bowlers who get equipment.
Also when it comes to a oil ball being at 4000. If you bring it down from 4000 you will add more early roll to the ball and make it easier to conrol. The other direction is easy to do also. Something like 2000 with polish will give you more skid then 4000. You have a wide range of surfaces you can work with.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Edited on 10/31/2007 12:35 PM
Post by: batbowler on October 31, 2007, 12:56:17 PM
--------------------
"Train a child up in the way he should go and when he is old he will not turn from it."
Post by: jls on October 31, 2007, 01:31:02 PM
from what i have seen in just a little over a week,
the ball is a monster.
get past all the track hype about codes and drillings.
drill the ball. the recommended drilling is a monster. seeing is believing!!!
but i must admit, we have only done the recommended drilling if we had a short pin, or if using a longer pin>> low top weight.
otherwise on a longer pin, we have used the pin above the fingers drilling with great success, or we have used pin 4" to mb drilling. both were excellent.
its a real shame that there was so much confusion about drilling this ball.
i blame Track!!!!
don't really understand what they where thinking.
however i do get their point about shops not using pap's. and i think they where trying to come up with a drilling that will perform for most, with or without a known pap.
drilling balls without a known pap, is not new. the One series had a pin above the finger layout as its recommended drilling, if no known pap.
however on that ball, i always felt it went too long for the bowler with less hand. and sometimes causing too much over and under.
that is not the case with this ball!!!!!
new meaning to the term "backend"
the ball is a monster!!!
drill one, before the guy on the other team does.
--------------------
jls, proud watcher of womens golf
Post by: jls on October 31, 2007, 01:48:33 PM
Chalk up another one for the genius that is the Fig!
Ebonite may want to rethink that decision. Wasn't it Fig that lead to AMF not renewing their PBA registration because "winning tournaments and making shows doesn't sell balls"? AMF made and won many shows with the TNT and Velocity series balls and failed to capitalize on that success.......brilliant!
sir
good point, however this is not the 1970's or 1980's when bowling was on ABC each and every Saturday, following the wide world of sports.
everybody on the planet know, that at 2:30, bowling comes on.
however that is not the case anymore. only real die hard bowlers seem to know when bowling comes on.
and believe it or not, most bowlers watch the NFL on sunday!!!!!
you see, that is why there are so many beer commericals on.
putting bowling on sunday, next to the NFL????
what where they thinking????????
now i remember well those wins on the tour by AMF guys using the velocity.
but its hard for bowlers watching the NFL to see that!!!!
--------------------
jls, proud watcher of womens golf
Edited on 11/1/2007 2:14 PM
Post by: BuddiesProShopcom - Bill on October 31, 2007, 04:01:05 PM
--------------------
Thanks
Bill
BuddiesProShop.com
"The Place All Bowlers Shop"
Post by: jls on October 31, 2007, 04:10:50 PM
those days are long gone. today if you ask bowlers, when is the tour on tv,
you get, "i don't know" "sat"?
sure some "elite" bowlers still watch the show, but even then, it's sometimes hard to see what they are actually using.
and no doublt, that you may get some calls after a show. but its nothing compared to the calls we would get back in the 70's or 80's, when the show was on ABC.
i alway felt, bowling died a little, when the tour was cancelled by ABC.
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jls, proud watcher of womens golf
Post by: qstick777 on November 01, 2007, 01:45:15 PM
quote:
Posted: Jan 10, 2005
Norm Duke, throwing AMF300 equipment, made the finals on Sunday at the PBA Geico Open in Mesa, AZ. Norm is a 21 time title winner and this makes the 9th week in a row for AMF300 to appear on the show.
Here's looking forward to the PBA El Paso Classic!
To say the tour doesn't help to sell balls may or may not be correct, but it was one of the reasons I bought the Velocity. I don't recall seeing that ball on the show, but when I looked at AMF's products, the Velocity jumped out at me.
My problem was I couldn't find any local shops that sold AMF - had to have my shop special order it (and they did it reluctantly!).
I don't know who you blame for that - product manager, sales reps, or the shop owners? That particular shop is primarily Ebonite, Storm, and Brunswick. Rarely would you even see Hammer or Columbia300. Forget about seeing a Track, Roto, AMF, or DT.
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