Author Topic: 2321 New all events leader!!! (Read 9132 times)

Curt_Dupre · « **on:** April 25, 2009, 04:22:14 PM »

Ron Vokes shoots 2321 all events!!! That is some insane bowling. I can't believe that he just shot the record. Just think in 23 years of him bowling nationals his career best was only 1926. He beat his high by almost 400 pins. He also shot 857 in singles!!!

Dan Belcher · « **Reply #46 on:** April 28, 2009, 10:50:04 AM »

quote:
Riggs,
Based on the scores since 1989 I would probably agree that 2,223 would be "in line" with a winning score. But you said you didn't think this score was all that high...

Considering such a score would have won or pin within 1-pin if winning AE in 16 of 20 years (not to mention EVERY AE title prior to 1989...regardless of circumstances), I would contend that such a score IS high...winning scores usually are.

So if you don't think 2,223 is high, then what is? I mean, this "in line" winning score was just best by about 100 pins.

What do you think the scoring ceiling for Nationals should be? Or should it be a scorefest, even if only for the best?

Is it fair to consider only the winning score? That metric is flawed, in my opinion, because it's more subject to variation than taking a look at a larger sample size of scores. You could put down a super-tough shot next year where the field averages 20 pins less, yet one person could just get locked in and throw the ball amazing well, plus have a ball reaction that just perfectly matches their game, and shoot an even bigger number than we've seen this year. It's not likely, but it could very well happen. Therefore, it's not really a fair comparison point in and of itself.

NOTHUMB · « **Reply #47 on:** April 28, 2009, 10:51:30 AM »

The guy was nutted. It happens. Even on the toughest shot, someone, somewhere can probably hit them.

Congrats to him, just an amazing accomplishment. Why not wait until the end of the tourney to suggest they were too easy or too hard? Why, immediately after someone has unheard of success, do we have to attack him? Its stupid.

When Janawicz shot 858, that was an amazing accomplishment. He has proved himself to be solid since---just so happened that on that day, he was nutted.
--------------------

Chris Barnes is not a choker---he is just a great opponent to draw on TV.

riggs · « **Reply #48 on:** April 28, 2009, 10:54:41 AM »

Eaglehunter, below is what I said and it's just my opinion. Six of the years since 1989 2,223 would not have won and it was done by one of the greatest bowlers in the history of the tournament. The next score down would have won just five times. My main point is my last line: THE SKY IS NOT FALLING. Too many people (not necessarily you) think because Vokes had a tournament no one may ever have again means that this year is somehow totally different than what has come before.
1989 WAS totally different. 2009 OVERALL is not significantly out of context of scoring since 1989.
Scores are all relative. I don't look for the scores to be a certain number. I just want to know that the fresh condition - which is what USBC can control - requires good shots to hit the pocket, which it most certainly does. I have no problem with good teams working together creating area to shoot good scores. That rewards team play, which is what the tournament SHOULD do.
The one thing I have consistently campaigned for through the years is USBC sucking it up and doing what is necessary for all minors competition to be on fresh oil. You won't see 2,321 if they do that. And you probably won't see 2,200 if you do that.

************************

What I posted on the main PBA board on this topic:

This year's scores need to be kept in perspective. There have been a handful of very high scores but overall the scoring pace is not historically high. 1,474 leading doubles actually is somewhat low by standards of recent years. There are only two 800s in singles and I believe only one in doubles and none in team.

Third place in all-events is 2,168 - not high at all, and 2,223 in second is not that high and it was done by one of the greatest bowlers I've ever seen who didn't bowl full-time on Tour.

There are three 3,400s in team but when you look at what is 10th or 20th or whatever you pick out it is not really high. With higher volume of oil, good teams who work together have more of an opportunity to shoot a high score. Same thing can be said about team all-events, with caveat being that both of our teams who got 10,300 had right people in front of us in minors.

In one of my blogs I did a comparison of the scores down to 10th at the time we bowled and it was amazingly close over the last few years.

I know Ron Vokes and he is the type of bowler who when is on can strike a TON. And he is a fun-loving, easy-going guy who isn't AFRAID to strike a lot, which is a huge key.

He had an amazing tournament that is almost incomprehensible. Congrats are what he deserves.

It does not mean the sky is falling.

Edited on 4/28/2009 10:58 AM

Edited on 4/28/2009 11:00 AM

EagleHunter · « **Reply #49 on:** April 28, 2009, 11:03:27 AM »

Dan,
All such discussion is relative. Was Billings really the highest scoring event? Perhaps, but there were so many fewer bowlers can the scores be adequately compared with Reno events? Perhaps all of the "destination bowlers" who go for the vacation only (and consequently may not be very good bowlers) decided to stay home?

What about the fact that possibly greater than 60% of the bowlers have no chance of EVER shooting 1800 because they simply are not that good...should scoring comparisons only use bowlers of a certain level in order to gain a better understanding about the scorability of the pattern?

Looking at average scoring or low-to-cash scores for events that are held in "popular" locations doesn't give a fair indication of the relative ease of a scoring pattern. I think looking at the scoring of the good bowlers gives a much better indication.

another300 · « **Reply #50 on:** April 28, 2009, 11:10:47 AM »

quote:
Just make sure you post your scores Mvpbowler....

We'd all like to see them since they are so easy..

Beans

Yeah, i'd like to see them too!

EagleHunter · « **Reply #51 on:** April 28, 2009, 11:27:00 AM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by riggs:
Scores are all relative. I don't look for the scores to be a certain number. I just want to know that the fresh condition - which is what USBC can control - requires good shots to hit the pocket, which it most certainly does...The one thing I have consistently campaigned for through the years is USBC sucking it up and doing what is necessary for all minors competition to be on fresh oil. You won't see 2,321 if they do that. And you probably won't see 2,200 if you do that.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Riggs,
I am 100% in agreement with you. Good shot making should be rewarded, poor shot making should be punished. The USBC must step up and find a way to make the lane conditioning situation work better.

That said though, I still think that regardless of the shot making ability of any bowler, the scoring pace should be regulated. The very reason that the U.S. Open is held in such high regard (in bowling and in golf) is due to the credibility of the scoring. USBC Nationals should be held in the same regard.

No bowler should ever be villified for the scores he/she puts up at Nationals. If a bowler has a career tourney and bowls a record score everyone's hat should be off to them. But USBC should be looked at very hard if those winning scores keep going in the wrong direction.

You seemed to suggest a soft cap of 2,200 should USBC condition lanes as suggested. I think that is a reasonable "ceiling" for Nationals, which may be broken from time to time, but honestly should never be shattered. If it is shattered it's time to look at USBC again.

riggs · « **Reply #52 on:** April 28, 2009, 11:36:08 AM »

I don't disagree with what you say. I just don't think we'd be having this discussion if there weren't one amazingly and totally out of this world score.

Again I say that the best way to compare scoring levels is by looking at 10th, 25th, 50th, 100th and 500th. Those scores aren't really impacted by the "tourist" bowlers who skip places like Billings and Corpus Christi. Will be interesting to see where they end up - they weren't out of place when we were there:

http://77square.com/sweat/blog/frame11/entry_445644

And if they went to minors all fresh I don't think you'd see 2,200 hardly at all.

themachine300 · « **Reply #53 on:** April 28, 2009, 11:38:53 AM »

Man 500 over, I haven't gone yet and I'm done before I even start. Thats just an incredible number
--------------------
www.bowlingsolutions.com

Bowl to win!!!

Move left, hook it more.....

Tommy Jones and Kenny Simard are Gamecock fans...are you???

uwscooter · « **Reply #54 on:** April 28, 2009, 12:51:35 PM »

We are heading out this Friday (to bowl on Sunday). It appears that Team scores are ahead of last year - at least slightly. We had 3,171 last year and moved temporarly into 10th place (this year the same score today would be good for 18th - 10th is 3,236). But a 66 pin difference isn't huge IMO, but that is only for Team.

Edited on 4/28/2009 12:52 PM

EagleHunter · « **Reply #55 on:** April 29, 2009, 09:20:07 AM »

Bob,
The 1977 AE winning score was 2,117. The first 2,200 score was shot in 1989...the year that Riggs referred to when he said "everything changed."

Riggs,
You are probably correct that this discussion would not be occurring if not for Mr. Voakes spectacular bowling. However, as you suggested 1989 was the year everything changed as someone broke 2,200 for the first time. For all we know, this could be the next time that "everything changed" as now the 2,300 barrier has been broken. Time will tell...

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #56 on:** April 30, 2009, 06:09:36 PM »

No thumb said some smart stuff!

I've noticed that on tough flat conditions sometimes the heavy hands guys can just create area!

Especially if bowling with helpful teammates!

Once they have that area if they can relax and let it happen they can really lay down the law...with a bit of area no one else is quite seeing!

REgards,

Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..

psaunders300 · « **Reply #57 on:** May 06, 2009, 08:09:09 AM »

Great insight, Mark.
--------------------
Thanks,
Paul Saunders
USBC Bronze Level Coach
http://bowling.psaunders.net

riggs · « **Reply #58 on:** May 06, 2009, 08:35:15 AM »

Very excellent post Mark!

Very interesting especially regarding idea of paying off folks in front of you for minors. Can't see that happening for many, many, many reason but it's interesting point.

Real answer is finding a way to make all minors squads fresh!

And there is NO way USBC will EVER go to random drawing of lanes that would split up companion teams. 1) It would tick off thousands of teams that are more interested in camaraderie than winning eagles. 2) It penalizes teams for something that should be REWARDED for - working together. TEAMWORK!!

Mvpbowler · « **Reply #59 on:** May 06, 2009, 08:40:55 AM »

I simply think that bowling has developed a situation here. I believe posting the pattern before hand at a tournament such as nationals has not helped. I understand that it has gone on for many years now. That is why you had Team USA Support teams up in the top 10 every year, because they got to bowl on the pattern for so long. It wasn't fair then and it isn't fair now. Now you book in advance and you can come bowl on the pattern with Jas and your whole team can get their swings in line with what is out there. I just simply believe in a way it is a form of cheating. Anyone who has access to the Kegel Training center does the same thing and they won't deny it one bit. A few years back guys use to go there all the time and bowl on the pattern. Well how is that fair to the bowler that doesn't have that access??

As for Mr. Vokes, I watched the video on him yesterday. I won't talk much about the bowling because it speaks for itself. I am just disappointed that someone who is probably going to win 2 eagles can't even show up in slacks. It has been pointed out to me in another post on here that if he were to tuck in his shirt it would make him look even bigger. That is fine, but seriously for someone who has been so successful as I have been told on here, I would expect a little more respect at our most prestigious event in our bowling history. Why they ever allowed jeans at this tournament I have no idea. I know of many local events you can't even wear jeans to. Just seems to make our sport look Pathetic. It is pretty sick to think that video will be on for many years to come because I really don't see that AE score going down and that is what I would have to watch everytime.

I feel that things like this is why the sport is on the decline right now. We can't get any big sponsors or anyone to help support the sport because well what does everyone think bowling is and bowlers are. You can answer that for yourself.
--------------------
George Palumbo

riggs · « **Reply #60 on:** May 06, 2009, 09:29:30 AM »

George, open posting of the pattern is FAR FAR FAR BETTER than how it was in the days when certain people had information about the pattern and most people didn't.

Open posting is the ONLY FAIR WAY TO DO IT!!!!!!

Author Topic: 2321 New all events leader!!! (Read 9132 times)

Curt_Dupre

2321 New all events leader!!!

Dan Belcher

Re: 2321 New all events leader!!!

NOTHUMB

Re: 2321 New all events leader!!!

riggs

Re: 2321 New all events leader!!!

EagleHunter

Re: 2321 New all events leader!!!

another300

Re: 2321 New all events leader!!!

EagleHunter

Re: 2321 New all events leader!!!

riggs

Re: 2321 New all events leader!!!

themachine300

Re: 2321 New all events leader!!!

uwscooter

Re: 2321 New all events leader!!!

EagleHunter

Re: 2321 New all events leader!!!

LuckyLefty

Re: 2321 New all events leader!!!

psaunders300

Re: 2321 New all events leader!!!

riggs

Re: 2321 New all events leader!!!

Mvpbowler

Re: 2321 New all events leader!!!

riggs

Re: 2321 New all events leader!!!