Author Topic: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot? (Read 12595 times)

Joebowler98 · « **on:** February 28, 2008, 03:01:51 AM »

I have heard that many of the top teams commit to "break down their pair" to make a shot. Anyone care to share their stragedy for doing this?

Strider · « **Reply #31 on:** March 03, 2008, 08:44:42 AM »

In case some of you misinterpreted, there is a big difference between 5-10 people breaking a pair down together with normal equipment, and other people through a lot of practice time (yes, like the PBA - I hate the practice of completely blowing the pattern apart before scoring starts - what's the point - just wall them up and give them 2 shots like Nationals) and heavily sanded equipment completely changing the pattern that was applied. If you don't like the shot that's out there, why not foul during practice, flop on the lane and wipe the oil you don't want away with your clothes?

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Pinbuster · « **Reply #32 on:** March 03, 2008, 09:10:30 AM »

Regrettably this has become a part of the game.

As long as bowling allows equipment that can quickly alter the oil pattern it is with us, within the rules and is a valid tactic in team play.

However it leads to some controversy like last year when a team request to bowl by themselves so they donâ€™t have to deal with another team not breaking down the lanes as they desire.

I assume the belly flop would be covered under rule 17a unfair tactics but I have wondered that same thing myself. Someone does a Machuga Flop and wipes out most of the oil outside 10 but I donâ€™t know if you could slide 30 feet to get it all.

Jorge300 · « **Reply #33 on:** March 03, 2008, 09:12:47 AM »

Wow.....I can't believe people would compare a team working together to someone purposely keeping the average low.

To those that think this is cheating:
Do you watch football? College or Pro doesn't matter. If you look at the offense, what did you see? You saw 11 guys "acting as one" to execute a gameplan in order to improve their chances to win the game. Whether it was to run the ball or pass the ball, the team put together a gameplan practiced it and tried to run it perfection. Same goes for defense. This idea is the same in any team sport, Soccor, Baseball, Basketball, Hockey, Rugby, etc.

So why is that same idea cheating in bowling. In Riggs' case, they get 10 guy to act as one, they all try to throw the ball in the same area to improve their chances of winning. For Riggs' two teams, they make the ultimate sacrifice, to put their team goals ahead of individual goals. In other sports those type of players are celebrated. In this thread they get called cheaters. And for the one individual who said something about paying the other team to do this, the role players like this in baseball and football, they don't do it for free do they? Riggs and others have spent years putting teams together and practicing together in order to give them the best shot at "winning" when the time comes. No one has offered anything more then petty jealousy as to why this should be called cheating.
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Jorge300

riggs · « **Reply #34 on:** March 03, 2008, 09:13:20 AM »

Strider: LOL!

I agree with you on the PBA format. There are not many who like the way it is out there - too much practice time and not moving pairs each game creates a bad situation. I wrote a column on this for the Ten Pin Journal in Milwaukee. The trouble is the format forces you into doing things that are NOT cheating because there aren't rules against it - you can't really make any because you can't tell people what ball to use and where to throw it - but don't feel "right." But if you want to win you have to manage the pattern. PBA should drastically limit practice and move pairs each game during match play.

USBC also could limit practice but then smart teams would just be doing it when the game started. The reality is a good team(s) with smart bowlers is going to try to play the same area of the lane even if there is NO PRACTICE. That is just smart bowling. You could move pairs each game in team event but logistically that would be a nightmare for USBC and its computers, too. Plus, IMHO, the teamwork involved in cooperating while bowling is something that philosophically should be rewarded - it is a TEAM COMPETITION!!!!

Jorge explains this concept will in his post above - thanks Jorge!

Edited on 3/3/2008 10:15 AM

Jorge300 · « **Reply #35 on:** March 03, 2008, 09:16:51 AM »

quote:
However it leads to some controversy like last year when a team request to bowl by themselves so they donâ€™t have to deal with another team not breaking down the lanes as they desire.

This was posted before I finalized my prior post. The controversy was around the moving of the team, not the concept of breaking the lanes down. This was the first time I had ever heard of a team being moved for any reason other then a lane malfunction (although as we learned I guess we all could have asked and been granted this "privilege"). I can only assume that changes have been made this year to make sure it doesn't occur again.
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Jorge300

headwest · « **Reply #36 on:** March 03, 2008, 11:37:28 AM »

The problem I have with it is that it seems unfair to have ten guys break down the shot versus five for many other teams.Some of us don't have that luxury so in my mind that is an unfair advantage though I wouldn't classify it as cheating.

Strapper_Squared · « **Reply #37 on:** March 03, 2008, 11:39:21 AM »

I would venture to say that this is taking advantage of the opportunity.. is it actually cheating? Maybe.. maybe not. I think that we would all agree that its well within the provided rules.. you can't tell someone (or some group) that they can't throw on a certain part of the lane, however, relative to small groups of bowlers (one team or less) who are randomly paired with another team (or placed on a team), its definitely an unfair competitive advantage. Any time money is involved, I think as many steps as possible should be taken to eliminate these advantages. I think that the only way to combat this practice would be to randomly determine lane assignments and physically not allow teams to "work together".

S^2
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"The haddock hits me with a sucker punch. I catch him with a left hook.
He eels over. It was a fluke, but there he was, lying on the deck,
flat as a mackerel, kelpless."

Jorge300 · « **Reply #38 on:** March 03, 2008, 01:03:07 PM »

quote:
I would venture to say that this is taking advantage of the opportunity.. is it actually cheating? Maybe.. maybe not. I think that we would all agree that its well within the provided rules.. you can't tell someone (or some group) that they can't throw on a certain part of the lane, however, relative to small groups of bowlers (one team or less) who are randomly paired with another team (or placed on a team), its definitely an unfair competitive advantage. Any time money is involved, I think as many steps as possible should be taken to eliminate these advantages. I think that the only way to combat this practice would be to randomly determine lane assignments and physically not allow teams to "work together".

S^2
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+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
"The haddock hits me with a sucker punch. I catch him with a left hook.
He eels over. It was a fluke, but there he was, lying on the deck,
flat as a mackerel, kelpless."

I think this is a great idea, why not give the average Joe Bowler another reason to not come to the USBC National tournament. As we can see by the number of entrants this year (the second largest non-Reno field ever, I believe), the tournament is doing well. But how many teams are gonna forgo traveling across the country if we tell them you can't bowl on the same pair with your other 5 friends who came along with you. In fact Team A is on lane 2 and Team B is on lane 40 so you can't even see or talk to one another.

C'mon people, this is getting ridiculous. You people act like you could get any 5 guys from a scratch league, put them together, tell them to play the lanes the same and they are gonna shoot 3300. The teams that are successful at this are so for 2 reasons: 1) They are great bowlers. Looks at Riggs description of their second team. Looks at Riggs' resume. These guys are already some of the best bowlers around. 2) They work at bowling as a team. They practice together, working together sharing information, in essence being a team.

The only unfair advantage they have is that they have worked their tails off to be better then 90% of us and have worked to be one cohesive unit. And last I checked, that was what you were supposed to do. So are you complaining, if you stopped and took the time you spent crying on here and used it to practice on the lanes with your teammates, maybe you could do as well as Riggs and his team do.
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Jorge300

thirtyclean · « **Reply #39 on:** March 03, 2008, 01:23:35 PM »

Jorge300,
What if you have two lefties on your team ? Are they going to swith hands and wear a line in ? Not all of us have the luxury of bowling with guys that have won Eagles and are big shooters. If these guys are so good and accurate, why do they need an area worn in ? I know guys that go down to the Nationals and whack them without that luxury. But, It is not cheating, its just taking advantage of a team working together. The team I go down with, we usually dont know the other team on our pair. If these guys have 10 guys working together, I can see a huge advantage. Some bowlers dont have the luxury of also bringing a sanded ball just for that purpose. I do carry one of these in the trunk, a particle at 400 grit to wear a line in, sometimes in league.
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Thirtyclean (Well maybe 29, or 28, most of
the times !)

thirtyclean · « **Reply #40 on:** March 03, 2008, 02:28:39 PM »

It's not jealousy, but the fact that not all of us have the same luxury of that team concept. Sure I would like to recruit Norm Duke, Danny Wiseman, Walter Ray Williams, and a Brian Voss. These are guys that I emulate, but not all of my teamates throw similar. This is all I am going to say, its a great concept, its not cheating, and the bowlers still must make good shots. You can be a great bowler, but dont have the luxury of bowling with great teamates !
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Thirtyclean (Well maybe 29, or 28, most of
the times !)

Jorge300 · « **Reply #41 on:** March 03, 2008, 02:35:24 PM »

quote:
Jorge300,
What if you have two lefties on your team ? Are they going to swith hands and wear a line in ? Not all of us have the luxury of bowling with guys that have won Eagles and are big shooters. If these guys are so good and accurate, why do they need an area worn in ? I know guys that go down to the Nationals and whack them without that luxury. But, It is not cheating, its just taking advantage of a team working together. The team I go down with, we usually dont know the other team on our pair. If these guys have 10 guys working together, I can see a huge advantage. Some bowlers dont have the luxury of also bringing a sanded ball just for that purpose. I do carry one of these in the trunk, a particle at 400 grit to wear a line in, sometimes in league.
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Thirtyclean (Well maybe 29, or 28, most of
the times !)

Dude, are you really this stupid....you complain about gus doing it at Nationals, where there is prestige and good chunk of money available if you win, yet you say you do it in your chump chang league?!? Get real.

If there are two lefties and 3 righties, you have it even better then Riggs' team. The lefties play the same spot, the righties play the same spot and guess what, not only do you break down a line, you don't over dry it out to where you have to start making major moves. You break it down just enough and you only have to move a few boards.

And guess what, if you play the lanes smart like this, you don't need a team of eagle winners to do good, that's the whole point. No wonder we are losing members left and right....people complain and others cheaters for {gasp} working together as a team. Unreal!
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Jorge300

headwest · « **Reply #42 on:** March 03, 2008, 02:36:29 PM »

quote:
I can't believe the amount of jealousy I am reading on this board. I bowl with a bunch of friends who all avg. 215 and up on house shots. Do i believe I will ever win a team title? NO. We don't practice together, we all play different parts of the lane, and are not real consistent. What Riggs and his teams do is what all real good teams should do. Its teamwork and everyone can do it if they choose to.

I guess for you people complaining, you want them to reoil the lanes after every shot. That would make it as fair as possible. Of course it would take years to complete the tournament, but what does that matter as long as it is fair.

As I do every year I look forward to the Riggs report so I can get a look as to what part of the lane I should at least try to play. Good luck Riggs, hope you win the team title again. Just try to keep singles within shooting distance so I feel like I have a chance.

I think everyone looks forward to the Riggs report and I think his team would still be one of the favorites to win a team title but it's still an advantage to have two teams work together.I for one also know the team I bowl with has no real chance ,though last year we cashed for the first time,but I still believe the playing field should be level.I think the USBC still defines a team as being five players not ten.

Jorge300 · « **Reply #43 on:** March 03, 2008, 02:43:43 PM »

quote:
It's not jealousy, but the fact that not all of us have the same luxury of that team concept. Sure I would like to recruit Norm Duke, Danny Wiseman, Walter Ray Williams, and a Brian Voss. These are guys that I emulate, but not all of my teamates throw similar. This is all I am going to say, its a great concept, its not cheating, and the bowlers still must make good shots. You can be a great bowler, but dont have the luxury of bowling with great teamates !
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Thirtyclean (Well maybe 29, or 28, most of
the times !)

See then it's your choice. Do you think Riggs' team magically appeared one day?!? If you want a better then 50-50 chance at winning the team title, then you have to build a team. It could take a year or two or maybe longer to do it. I don't bowl with a team like Riggs', why? Cause I like bowling with my friends from back where I grew up. This way I get to see them at least once a year. Do we have good shot at winning, no. Could we win if we all got hot, yes. And to me the fun had bowling with this group outweighs the difference. I do well in the brackets and make a little in the actual tournament. You don't need PBA members to make this work, that's the problem with your thinking. You just need 5-10 guys whose styles are close enough that they can all play the same basic area. You don't need sandblasted equipment, you don't need eagles, all you need is people willing to put aside personal gain for the betterment of the team as whole. Unfortunately, in bowling, that is hard to come by.
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Jorge300

srlunatic · « **Reply #44 on:** March 03, 2008, 02:53:43 PM »

Man....you would think there are people on teams here that actually have a shot of winning...;-)

For one....breaking the shot down does not mean you have bumper bowling for 3 games. You still have to be very accurate, very consistant, and the "broken" shot only lasts for a little bit so you have to make adjustments.

You still have to execute, you still have to compete, and you still have to have a ton of luck to get to the top of the board...and that is if you are on a seriously good team.

For most of us.....go...have fun....shoot some decent numbers...hope you can put together a great team series....and have fun!

As for cheating....since EVERYONE could do this if they wish....I don't see how this could be cheating...

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The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. ~John Kenneth Galbraith

The Christian Right is neither.

The Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter, taller, richer, and remove the crabgrass on your lawn. The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it. ~P.J. O'Rourke

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives. ~John Stuard Mill

Ahhbach · « **Reply #45 on:** March 03, 2008, 03:43:53 PM »

Alot of this could be solved by not posting, nor allowing downloads of, the shot in February so guys can practice on the shot before going out. My opinion is that the first shot you throw on the shot is at the Tournament site.

Ahh
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'I'm Partial to the Fugue' - Radar O'Reilly

Author Topic: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot? (Read 12595 times)

Joebowler98

Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot?

Strider

Re: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot?

Pinbuster

Re: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot?

Jorge300

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riggs

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Jorge300

Re: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot?

headwest

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Strapper_Squared

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Jorge300

Re: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot?

thirtyclean

Re: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot?

thirtyclean

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Jorge300

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headwest

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Jorge300

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srlunatic

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Ahhbach

Re: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot?