Author Topic: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot? (Read 12729 times)

Joebowler98 · « **on:** February 28, 2008, 03:01:51 AM »

I have heard that many of the top teams commit to "break down their pair" to make a shot. Anyone care to share their stragedy for doing this?

riggs · « **Reply #46 on:** March 03, 2008, 05:41:46 PM »

The fascinating thing about this is that it has been going on for decades - today's balls just make it happen WAY faster.

I was lucky enough to be picked up in 1983-84 by what might have been the greatest 10-man ABC group in history - the Kendor/Faball group organized by Hall of Famer Rich Wonders. All 10 guys in that group won eagles, many of us multiple eagles. Much of who I am as a bowler came from what I learned with them. That group was my model for what I've done - 10 friends and good bowlers who believe in the concept of TEAM.

We were doing the same thing in the 1980s - working to play a similar area together - as my group does now. Things just didn't happen as fast and there wasn't the Internet for info to spread.

Also, one thing you all have to remember is that sometimes working together can be a detriment. 1) You can play the wrong part of the lane to start, as we have once and maybe twice. 2) You can "overmanage" your environment and break them down TOO much so they get too wet/dry in a spot, as we did last year, I think.

I would not have any problem with random draw. Do that and we would separate our teams into the 2:30 and 8:30 squads on the same day and take a bigger whack at brackets (as some good teams do now). And, unless we got a bunch of brutal shimwreckers to cross with, I think we'd do just fine.

However, it would take away some of the camaraderie and fun we have, which would be a big negative. And, as others pointed out, there are TONS and TONS of teams who would be pissed off because they couldn't bowl with their friends. Probably would cost some entries.

riggs · « **Reply #47 on:** March 03, 2008, 05:44:31 PM »

And Ahh, not a debate I want to revisit but the problem with keeping the pattern secret is that someone will get it and they have a GIGANTIC advantage if they know what they're doing. Or maybe they'll go watch others bowl early and see what works.
Openness = fairness.
PERIOD.

DanH78 · « **Reply #48 on:** March 03, 2008, 08:49:16 PM »

quote:
Lesser bowlers? LOL! Three of our No. 2 team have Eagles, a fourth has a second and third place finish, and the fifth has a third place finish! And we've all been friends and bowled together for years.

The most prestigious part of the USBC Tournament is the Team Event and we take that to another level with our 10-man team concept. We epitomize what it's all about, IMHO - all for one and one for all.

Sorry, but when you make a statement like this

quote:

And, yes, my team is typically giving up some money to our other team in splitting brackets, but we know having them work with us helps us, and they are a good team that in some years has bowled as well as us.

It makes them sound like they are not as good as you.

And that doesn't change my question, how is paying another team to bowl your way, in order to help your team score higher, fair?
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It IS next year!

Joebowler98 · « **Reply #49 on:** March 03, 2008, 09:46:11 PM »

WOW...
I didn't know what a can of worms i opened up. I really didn't mean to start such a debate. I wasn't talking about taking 60 grit sanded balls and "wrecking" the shot. I appreciate the information provided by all. I will have to watch Riggs and his guys bowl this year. My team bowls Sat. 4-5 2:30 pm and Minors at 9:20 am Sun. Maybe i can learn as much as i did last year from my session with Mike at lane 81. My ave has went from 203 to 214. He fixed many holes in my swing. Now just need to learn more about reading lane transitions on a flat pattern. (Maybe my next thread). Thanks to all.
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There's always' hope as long as there is one more ball in the bag!

Jorge300 · « **Reply #50 on:** March 04, 2008, 06:55:05 AM »

quote:
I believe to keep this tournament fair to all is to have no practice on the lanes before you bowl...of course this will not ever happen the reason is because we need to warm up and find a shot where the condition tells us to play and THAT is the reason for the pre tournament warm up... it is to WARM UP. If you can manipulate the shot its not the shot that everyone plays on and its not the shot the Tournament intended either.

Anyway just my two cents, this is what I love about this forum.

PS I never bowled the tourney and always wanted to but now...not so much.

Do you bowl any leagues?!?

If tha answer is yes, then guess what, the practice before league is manipulating the shot. As Riggs has said, everytime a ball is thrown down the lane it changes the shot. This was true in 1950, 1960, 1970, 1980, 1990, and today. The balls of today just happen to change the shot quicker then in the past. Taken into account that the change is going to happen, all Riggs' team is doing is trying to make the change happen in a calculated way instead of random. It is smart thinking.

And the releasing the pattern debate....that is also old. Unless you have the exact lane surface, the exact oil, and the exact center conditions (altitude, humidity, air temp, etc) the shot you practice on will be different then the shot you see at the actual tournament. Add on top of that how skilled your house is a putting out that shot (i.e programing the machine or actually setting the shims for the older ones). I have tried getting a house to put out the shot before, and it has hurt me more then helped me. This year one house in my area put out the shot and one of the guys who practiced on it and just got back said the shot here was the same as Nationals, after about 2 games were bowled on it. So this isn't a real advantage to anyone, IMHO.

And lastly, Tony, you say you don't want to go to Nationals...all I have to say is your loss. Whether I have shot 1900 or 1600 (and I have done both believe me) I have always had a good time. Plus there are many side tournaments to bowl in that can add to the experience and help improve your game as well. I always hit the BJI, and now am sold on the BTM (especially after a good finish a few years back paid for my son's baby furniture, lol), and this year they have brought back the Sports Challenge as well. Plus I get to see cities/areas of the country I might otherwise never get to. Like this year we are driving from East Texas out and stopping at Roswell to see that sleepy little town where the UFO craze started from.

Jorge300

Edited on 3/4/2008 8:01 AM

Monster Pike · « **Reply #51 on:** March 04, 2008, 09:31:56 AM »

Well this might be another sign of Armageddon coming, but I have to agree w/Jorge on this one. Throwing a bowling ball legally down a lane is not cheating. It's called agressive bowling. Remember, what is good for the goose is also good for the gander. So there are other teams probably doing it. Riggs just admits it. They all still have to execute their strike ball shots & pick up their spares, don't they? JMO.
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"The last time I saw a face like that, it had a hook in it's mouth." Rodney Dangerfield

Edited on 3/4/2008 10:32 AM

riggs · « **Reply #52 on:** March 04, 2008, 11:08:43 AM »

quote:
quote:
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Lesser bowlers? LOL! Three of our No. 2 team have Eagles, a fourth has a second and third place finish, and the fifth has a third place finish! And we've all been friends and bowled together for years.

The most prestigious part of the USBC Tournament is the Team Event and we take that to another level with our 10-man team concept. We epitomize what it's all about, IMHO - all for one and one for all.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, but when you make a statement like this

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And, yes, my team is typically giving up some money to our other team in splitting brackets, but we know having them work with us helps us, and they are a good team that in some years has bowled as well as us.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It makes them sound like they are not as good as you.

And that doesn't change my question, how is paying another team to bowl your way, in order to help your team score higher, fair?

Sigh.

Dan, You make it sound like they are a bunch of hatchet murders who we offer half our side action to so they'll bowl completely differently than they otherwise would. I'm not arguing that they are AS GOOD as us. Speaking frankly, we have some of the very best bowlers in the country - or at least we once were LOL! - on our team. Our second team also is VERY good - probably better than 99.9 percent of the teams that bowl each year, as their records have shown.

So THEY ARE VERY GOOD BUT NOT AS GOOD AS US. Is that clear enough for you? Doesn't mean they might not beat us, though. Think in 2004 we only beat them by one pin when we both moved into the top 10 the night we bowled.

We are not "paying them" to do anything. Together we use a concept that encourages ALL OF US TO WORK TOGETHER FOR THE COMMON GOOD. What we do helps ALL 10 OF US score higher. It is NOT a situation where they bowl dramatically outside their comfort zone so we can bowl good - we're fairly old so none of us are what would be called crankers so whether we had a game plan or not we'd probably end up playing the same part of the lane anyway. One of our 10 guys throws it a little slower and hooks it a little more and might be out of his comfort zone some years when we start, but his overall results likely are higher for the team event than they'd be if he immediately started deep - he has a tendency to go 180-220-250 or something like that, not that that is unique at Nationals. He knows this and cooperates because he knows it benefits him.

What part of TEAMWORK do you not understand?
Or perhaps the better question is, when did TEAMWORK become unfair in your mind?

All 10 of us (usually) benefit from what we do in many ways, from not shimwrecking each other to splitting the side action to having fun together.

As I said before, USBC can go to random drawing for teams and I have a feeling we'll do just fine whoever we bowl with. But we'd have less fun and USBC would face a lot of pissed off bowlers who wouldn't get to bowl with their buddies.

DanH78 · « **Reply #53 on:** March 04, 2008, 12:41:54 PM »

quote:

Sigh.

Dan, You make it sound like they are a bunch of hatchet murders who we offer half our side action to so they'll bowl completely differently than they otherwise would. I'm not arguing that they are AS GOOD as us. Speaking frankly, we have some of the very best bowlers in the country - or at least we once were LOL! - on our team. Our second team also is VERY good - probably better than 99.9 percent of the teams that bowl each year, as their records have shown.

So THEY ARE VERY GOOD BUT NOT AS GOOD AS US. Is that clear enough for you? Doesn't mean they might not beat us, though. Think in 2004 we only beat them by one pin when we both moved into the top 10 the night we bowled.

We are not "paying them" to do anything. Together we use a concept that encourages ALL OF US TO WORK TOGETHER FOR THE COMMON GOOD. What we do helps ALL 10 OF US score higher. It is NOT a situation where they bowl dramatically outside their comfort zone so we can bowl good - we're fairly old so none of us are what would be called crankers so whether we had a game plan or not we'd probably end up playing the same part of the lane anyway. One of our 10 guys throws it a little slower and hooks it a little more and might be out of his comfort zone some years when we start, but his overall results likely are higher for the team event than they'd be if he immediately started deep - he has a tendency to go 180-220-250 or something like that, not that that is unique at Nationals. He knows this and cooperates because he knows it benefits him.

What part of TEAMWORK do you not understand?
Or perhaps the better question is, when did TEAMWORK become unfair in your mind?

All 10 of us (usually) benefit from what we do in many ways, from not shimwrecking each other to splitting the side action to having fun together.

As I said before, USBC can go to random drawing for teams and I have a feeling we'll do just fine whoever we bowl with. But we'd have less fun and USBC would face a lot of pissed off bowlers who wouldn't get to bowl with their buddies.

Teamwork isn't unfair, however, I view a Team as 5 bowlers. What part of that don't YOU understand? Last time I checked they give out awards in the team event for the 5 bowlers that bowl together, not the 10, 20 or 50. When they start giving out awards for the best pair of lanes or the best squad, then the definition will change. I've said before that I have no problem with 5 guys getting together and using the same strategy.

Does this look familiar?

Division Breakdown and Eligibility
The USBC Open Championships consists of team, doubles, singles, optional all-events and a Team All-Events category. There are two divisions, and the division for which you are eligible is based on your average. To determine your division, see the following information:

Classified Team- Five USBC members whose combined average does not exceed 900.
Classified Doubles- Combined average does not exceed 360.
Classified Singles/All-Events- Average does not exceed 180.
Regular Team- Five USBC members whose combined average is above 900.
Regular Doubles- Combined average above 360.
Regular Singles/All-Events- Average above 180.

It works out that you all play the lane similar, until one guy gets lost and wants to move, but he can't because then he'd either get kicked off the team next year or wouldn't get his cut of the side pots/brackets. To me that sounds like you're paying them to play the lanes a certain way.
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It IS next year!

riggs · « **Reply #54 on:** March 04, 2008, 07:11:49 PM »

Dan, I don't make the rules, I just bowl by them. Right now the rules let companion teams bowl together. So we make the best of that situation ... as do MANY other groups.

As I said, if you can persuade USBC to change the arrangement we will be happy to go and do our best, splitting our teams on different squads to go for more side $$$ and hoping to get the "right" teams with us ... just like we hope to have the right folks in front of us in minors. If it's random team pairing then we might have to consider a straight payment system to get them to conform to our gameplan!!

Whatever USBC does I have a hunch our teams are going to do just fine.

And seriously, I believe you'd be wasting your time with USBC on this one since they'd have so many teams so mad if they said they couldn't bowl together.

iknowiamright · « **Reply #55 on:** March 10, 2008, 11:06:09 AM »

It is only cheating if you are a toe and dont understand that it is gonna happen anyway! It might just happen in the wrong places though as everyone who doesnt understand what team bowling is will NEVER understand the importance of BOWLING AS A TEAM! Whether it be 5 or 10 guys it is still Team Bowling. And it plays the same when you bowl D/Ss because the 10 guys still have the same goal in mind and that is winning!

riggs · « **Reply #56 on:** March 10, 2008, 09:26:35 PM »

Bob, I agree with the spirit of what you propose but how do you do it? How do you tell if it's 500 or 1,000 or whatever? And I'll tell you that a new 1,000 pad will take a ball down more than a real used 500.

I almost never go below 1,000 - never works for my rev rate and ball speed, although sometimes I will hand touch a 1,000 ball with a 500 pad on, for example, a flooded shark. I NEVER use a "shimwreck only" ball as some PBA guys do. These are often like 180 and pretty comical. They are ONLY for managing the environment. Thing is, when I tried one once I couldn't get it where you need to get it - even on a flood it hit the lane and went left of where I wanted which is BAD! 1,000 is fine for me.

Jorge300 · « **Reply #57 on:** March 11, 2008, 08:22:18 AM »

I actually disagree with you Riggs, which is a rarity. Not that I tend to use them much because of seeing the same thing you mentioned, but I throw about 19 mph with med/high revs and on say a Shark pattern, especially a heavy volume one, or one of the other longer PBA patterns (TOC, WC, US Open) a 500 grit ball might be something I need or use. And saying that 1000 is the lowest you can go could mean the difference between cashing or not cashing.

As far as limiting practice, I think that would work fine for the PBA, no need for 1 hour of practice before TV, but at Nationals, even with everyone just throwing one ball, with 10 guys on a pair, you only get maybe 4-5 shots. Now, I'm not campaigning for more time or anything, just stating the facts, but I also don't think it would be fair to take any time away from where it is now.

Just my .02
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Jorge300

riggs · « **Reply #58 on:** March 11, 2008, 09:36:51 AM »

Jorge, I didn't mean to imply that I agreed with any particular number, just the spirit of the concept of a limit. But I also think it's unworkable because of the checking issue.

And if I threw 19 mph I would use 500 at times too!

butch300 · « **Reply #59 on:** March 13, 2008, 05:17:03 AM »

Forget it RIGGS!

You can't win with people that don't understand the concept of a "TEAM"

Most of the people on here, including myself, will never win an Eagle, but we are the first ones to ask...

Hey Riggs, what do you think about BLAH BLAH BLAH...or....

Hey Riggs, how should I attack the lanes at Nationals BLAH BLAH BLAH....

You know what you should do Riggs..NOTHING!

Don't tell people your secrets about winning Eagles.

I know a few guys that were on top of the leader board just last week that said they would NOT tell any one how they played the lanes.

Why should they do all the hard work for others.

All they are doing is telling people how to beat their scores, and that wouldn't make any sense at all.

So if I were you, I would say to hell with everyone on these boards.

Talk to them and give them advice about your equipment company, but from now on, don't tell them about what ball and surface you used while at Nationals.

If they want to know how to play them, tell them to get there early and sit behind someone that is hitting them pretty good and watch their reactions.

Good luck at Nationals!

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"If you're scared, say you're scared!"

Kenny = W.O.A.E.

www.buildanarsenal.com

www.allbowling.com

riggs · « **Reply #60 on:** March 13, 2008, 10:32:38 AM »

Thanks Butch. I know where you are coming from ... but this is a bigger issue to me than winning or not winning. Long ago when I was a young player with more talent than knowledge I received lots of help from people who never asked anything in return. Some were teammates but others were competitors (and even teammates are competitors in individual tournaments). One in particular was the late Hall of Famer Darold Meisel, who simply told me the best thing I could do was to pass it on.

I feel that in providing help in any area - balls, lane conditions, etc. - to other bowlers I am honoring Darold and honoring the sport.

In addition, I am a firm believer in openness and honesty in things like posting lane conditions and sharing information goes along with that, IMHO.

Believe me, when you win an Eagle sharing that info it is a lot sweeter because you know you did it on your abilities and the abilities of your teammates NOT any "secrets" you might have.

And besides how we play the lanes may not be the right way for everyone else so someone who takes such info and goes in with a closed mind may end up hurting themselves.

Edited on 3/13/2008 10:34 AM

Author Topic: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot? (Read 12729 times)

Joebowler98

Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot?

riggs

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riggs

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DanH78

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Joebowler98

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Jorge300

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Monster Pike

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riggs

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DanH78

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iknowiamright

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Jorge300

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riggs

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butch300

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