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Author Topic: Bagger leading USBC Classified  (Read 7994 times)

riggs

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Bagger leading USBC Classified
« on: February 29, 2008, 08:50:59 PM »
This should make anyone who loves bowling sick to their stomach. USBC absolutely MUST find a way to DQ and eliminate this guy forever from the USBC.



http://community.bowl.com/forums/t/86647.aspx?PageIndex=1
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LuvThatWhiteDot

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Re: Bagger leading USBC Classified
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2008, 12:28:39 PM »
quote:
So this guy's average drops 21 pins in one season, but he has his best overall finish at the USBC Open during the year that his average drops. Then he comes back this year and shoots almost the same AE score without improving at all during his regular league? This doesn't compute at all unless you consider the fact that he could be sandbagging. IMO, this guy should have been rerated into the Regular division based on his USBC Open average of 191.3 since 2002.


It's too bad the USBC couldn't rerate bowlers for the tournament only.  But if someone came in for their first year and totally stunk up the place and got put into Classified and came back in year 2 and shot 1800 AE, all Hades would break loose.  There's no way to make sure bowlers are competing fairly.

I plan to shoot 850 in singles and just pi$$ everyone off and get it over with
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riggs

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Re: Bagger leading USBC Classified
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2008, 08:11:12 PM »
Sammy, what happens in Classified will not impact me because I am in the Regular division. BUT all true sportsmen should care about the inequities of our game. Yes, life AND bowling are not fair. But that should not mean that you don't strive to make them as fair as possible.
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sammy the sage

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Re: Bagger leading USBC Classified
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2008, 08:26:29 PM »
SO

tell us HOW!

considering the outline/scenerio I laid out!
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riggs

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Re: Bagger leading USBC Classified
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2008, 08:40:53 PM »
That is what Rule 319 is for. Applied diligently it eliminates a lot of these issues. Example: Bowler A bowls in a tough house and gets a 195 average. But his tournament average is 213. Using 319 THAT is the average he is rerated to. It requires work and it should involve a USBC-run comprehensive Internet tournament records site accessible to all.

It will never be perfect but it can be a lot closer to fair than doing nothing.

I bowl scratch, as well, so I don't care on a personal level. But I do care about bowling being as fair as possible.
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riggs

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Re: Bagger leading USBC Classified
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2008, 06:06:10 AM »
Assuming all the facts are true about this guy's average and records, after thinking a lot about this and talking with some others, I now believe there are only two explanations for this.

1) This guy is the most blatant cheater of all time. He gamed the system and has the USBC somewhat in a corner knowing that they need to find a legally defensible way to DQ him.

2) He is an "accidental" bagger/cheater who didn't realize what he was doing and what might happen.

Stay with me ... think about it: Most "good" baggers go to great lengths to cover what they do, even intentionally bowling bad in tournaments to hold their tournament averages down and cover their tracks. Yet this guy dropped his average a huge amount in one year AND bowled very well in the Regular Division last year. A "good" bagger would have gradually dropped their average, bowled terrible in Regular Division for a couple of years and then crushed the Classified Division. This is just so obvious ... like a criminal leaving fingerprints and DNA and an ID at the crime scene.

I think it's possible this guy might have bowled in this pseduo-Sport league, dropping his average way down, not really realizing what he was doing, perhaps thinking he was just not bowling good. Then he goes and bowls well again at USBC in the Classified Division.

I am NOT saying I believe this but what he did was so obviously blatant as to be stupid, unless he was only interested in gaming the system for one big killing with the belief that USBC could not stop him.

BIG QUESTION: Does this guy have a track record of winning big money in handicap tournaments before this year's USBC.  If not, he might be the accidental bagger, not a blatant cheater.

It is important to note that EITHER WAY HE NEEDS TO BE DEALT WITH BY USBC.

If he is just an accidental bagger he should step forward and say he is sorry and this is not what he meant to have happen and ask to be put in the Regular Division where his career record shows he clearly belongs.  

If he is a blatant cheater USBC needs to find a way to do the right thing. What credibility the organization has in protecting the average bowler is most definitely at stake.
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Pinbuster

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Re: Bagger leading USBC Classified
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2008, 09:15:23 AM »
This is one reason I was against the "classified division".

It opens the door for cheaters. I seem to remember a few years back the winner of a couple classified events was DQ'd for average falsifying.

The tournament should be about crowning national champions, not who happened to bowl the best with an average under 180.
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agroves

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Re: Bagger leading USBC Classified
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2008, 11:58:52 PM »
quote:
This is one reason I was against the "classified division".

It opens the door for cheaters. I seem to remember a few years back the winner of a couple classified events was DQ'd for average falsifying.

The tournament should be about crowning national champions, not who happened to bowl the best with an average under 180.


Come on, there has to be a dividing line somewhere.  If there wasn't the tournament wouldn't have have the participation.
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riggs

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Re: Bagger leading USBC Classified
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2008, 10:46:40 AM »
Part of the problem is there is no national computerized database of tournament results to fight baggers.

If USBC really wanted to do something beneficial for the average dues paying member it would spend money on THAT!

And USBC officials are well aware of all this stuff and are not happy about the situation. Problem for them is once they let someone bowl without rerating it is not a simple process for them to "fix" the situation. Rule 319 stuff should take care of the guy in second place. Not sure about the first place guy. He might not even bowl other tournaments - again the terms "accidental" bagger.

There are thousands of classified bowlers to check and USBC staff could never check them all.

My prediction is there will be some rules changes regarding drops from Regular to Classified because of this. However, that may be something that requires delegates' approval, which could delay things.
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JONES_E828

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Re: Bagger leading USBC Classified
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2008, 01:29:42 PM »
I used to live where this guy bowls, and even drilled equipment for him in the late 90's. I can tell you that the centers in the area are now all dumps. At the one house the synthetics are 15 years old and have not been taken care of properly for the past 8 or 9 years. The synthetic panels have spots where the lamenent is gone. All of the centers have lane maintenance issues. I don't believe he's bagging on purpose. He is a 190-200+ bowler, but 170-180 is all he can knock down in the dungeons hes bowling in.
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Atochabsh

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Re: Bagger leading USBC Classified
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2008, 01:41:31 PM »
quote:
However, that may be something that requires delegates' approval, which could delay things.


I'm afraid you would probably be correct Riggs.  Though we do know that when USBC wants something they just do it delegates or no delegates.

We have rerated several bowlers in our assoc. for doing what it appears this guy is doing.  We took their results from all the local, state and national tournaments we could find, and created their new average.  Had a hearing and then passed the info onto USBC which upheld the rerates.  

But every year there's more scams.  This year's flavor is using your off hand and establishing an average, then using your good hand in touranments.  Since we have a lot of bowlers in our assoc. and a lot of centers, not every bowler is familiar to each of our 180+ secretaries.  In a smaller assoc. where everyone knows everyone else, it would be more difficult.  Since the membership application card does not say "hand", you can use either one.  And since I have never seen a tournament entry form that also asked for hand, how are you going to tell?  Within the local assoc. we tend to watch these folks very carefully.  But if they go to the next assoc. over and bowl a tournament, we have no way of knowing that.  Some of these people bowl 2 to 4 weekends a month, they make a nice supplemental income.  Unless the local assoc. keeps an eye on these shenanigans it will keep going on.  

Erin
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Rileybowler

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Re: Bagger leading USBC Classified
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2008, 01:44:48 PM »
Riggs aren't you the one who uses ten guys to break down the lanes to gain an advantage, sounds like pot calling kettle black to me , but thats just my way of thinking
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Carl
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someguyintucson

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Re: Bagger leading USBC Classified
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2008, 02:20:43 PM »
quote:
Riggs aren't you the one who uses ten guys to break down the lanes to gain an advantage, sounds like pot calling kettle black to me , but thats just my way of thinking
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Carl


I'm fairly certain that there is a huge difference between entering a tournament with a "false" average to gain entry into a lower division and bowling as a team to "make a shot" on a pair of lanes. Why not stick to the thread topic and make a comment about how this guy Kistler should be dealt with by the USBC tournament committee?
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riggs

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Re: Bagger leading USBC Classified
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2008, 07:03:07 PM »
Rileybowler, try this thread on that topic, then if you have more to say, please offer it there:

http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=190325&ForumID=79&CategoryID=5

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tjj300

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Re: Bagger leading USBC Classified
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2008, 10:36:35 PM »
Also looks like he quits leagues before 21 games when setting a high average.

That's classic bagging, if you ask me.

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Atochabsh

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Re: Bagger leading USBC Classified
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2008, 10:55:59 PM »
We have at least one bowler....booked 202 last year.  That's the only league of about 12 that he actually bowled more then 21 games.  All the other 11 or so leagues he averaged over 225 to 230.  

Erin
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