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Author Topic: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament  (Read 42439 times)

Mighty Fish

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Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« on: July 08, 2013, 04:38:19 PM »
Some people claim that the scores in the USBC Open Tournament are way too high, and they point to the high number of honor scores in attempting to make that point.

However, once again this year, the OVERALL averages of the tournament field are far from "too high" (as the following breakdown of this year's USBC Open clearly indicate) ...

* REGULAR TEAM ... 173.6 (120,335 games)
* REGULAR DOUBLES/SINGLES ... 173.8 (233,203 games)
* CLASSIFIED TEAM ... 152.1 (34,054 games)
* CLASSIFIED DOUBLES/SINGLES ... 149.3 (73,765 games)
* TEAM (both divisions combined) ... 168.9
* DOUBLES/SINGLES (both divisions combined) ... 168.0
* OVERALL (all divisions, all events) ... 168.3 (461,357 games)

So as I've maintained on many occasions, whereas there are quite a few high scores, only a very few -- outside of the best players and shotmakers -- are able to score at a high level. The statistics speak for themselves.

 

txbowler

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #61 on: March 03, 2014, 11:50:31 AM »
txbowler,
     I don't think they have to win to have a firestorm erupt, all they would have to do is do well. Plus anyone of the people who "test" the pattern in the centers/NBS prior to release. There are a large group of people who "see" the pattern prior to the start of the tournament. But to some on here if they didn't release the pattern, all these people will magically keep their mouths shut about it. It is a fools errand to think so.

Jorge

I fully agree with you.

I was just pointing out an easy flaw in the keeping it secret debate.

And people would also suspect that the training center in Arlington would have something on the lanes that plays real close even though the pattern is secret.

The training center in Arlington had the pattern last year.  We practiced as a 10 member team 4 times on that pattern.  Every pair in the training center played slightly different on the team pattern and broke down slightly different.  Why, guys tried different balls with different surface at each session.

And when we got to Reno, we practiced on the showcase lanes which played totally different than Arlington. 

Then we finally bowled our team squad and they played close to what we saw in Arlington but had to use a different ball than I used in any practice session.

So my advise would be, lay out a sport pattern of the same length and volume as close as possible to the pattern as you can get and practice on it as a team for 3 games.  It will give you a general idea of the type of reaction and/or lack of reaction you will see at Reno and how it may breakdown.

storm making it rain

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #62 on: March 03, 2014, 12:17:48 PM »
txbowler,
     I don't think they have to win to have a firestorm erupt, all they would have to do is do well. Plus anyone of the people who "test" the pattern in the centers/NBS prior to release. There are a large group of people who "see" the pattern prior to the start of the tournament. But to some on here if they didn't release the pattern, all these people will magically keep their mouths shut about it. It is a fools errand to think so.

Jorge

I fully agree with you.

I was just pointing out an easy flaw in the keeping it secret debate.

And people would also suspect that the training center in Arlington would have something on the lanes that plays real close even though the pattern is secret.

The training center in Arlington had the pattern last year.  We practiced as a 10 member team 4 times on that pattern.  Every pair in the training center played slightly different on the team pattern and broke down slightly different.  Why, guys tried different balls with different surface at each session.

And when we got to Reno, we practiced on the showcase lanes which played totally different than Arlington. 

Then we finally bowled our team squad and they played close to what we saw in Arlington but had to use a different ball than I used in any practice session.

So my advise would be, lay out a sport pattern of the same length and volume as close as possible to the pattern as you can get and practice on it as a team for 3 games.  It will give you a general idea of the type of reaction and/or lack of reaction you will see at Reno and how it may breakdown.

I agree, there is NO way to duplicate the actual pattern you see at the stadium.  Sure you can get close to it, but just the lane topography of the stadium lanes and the pattern memory of wherever you are practicing on it will be different.  We set it up at my center last year with the Ice oil and while it played somewhat similar it wasn't the same.  It basically gave us an idea of what balls to use and where to play. 

Even at the BJ tourney, for me they played a lot tighter than what I had on the Minor squads.  The only way to have equality is to release the pattern.  Granted not everyone has the ability to practice on the "shot"  But out of all the bowlers that go there's probably only a small percentage of people who would want to.  Let's remember out of the 10K teams that attend, only about 3% (if that many) have a logical chance at winning an Eagle.

JessN16

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #63 on: March 05, 2014, 06:24:01 PM »
Jess,
    I am a swell guy, if you get to know me. But I also am a straight-shooter. I have done a lot of international traveling for my work, inlcuding trips to SE Asia. So I know the prices of these tickets. And to say it costs as much to go to Reno as it does to go to New Zealand is BS..... and a bunch of other stuff...

Jorge,

A few things...

1) About three years ago, my wife and I were offered round-trip airfare to New Zealand as part of a travel package for about $1500 for the two of us. I have never priced tickets there at any other time, although with the length of the flight alone I would assume I got a pretty good deal. We didn't take it. The trip was going to be 5-6 days total so $1500 plus whatever it would have cost us to stay there. We would have had transportation provided to us. As for Reno, there are now three of us in the family, airfare is about $550/person but does not include equipment transport, nor does it account for transportation once we're there. I'm sure Reno is still cheaper on the whole but I don't care if it's close, I care that we're talking about two trips in the same general vein -- something to save up for.

2) You say "no one wants their membership fees to go up $5." You talk to everyone with a card before making that statement? Because I'd double mine if I knew the USBC would properly spend the revenue. If you could guarantee me they'd send the tourney to Reno a maximum of once every three years, that would be good enough for me.

I have two points about the tournament. One is short to make -- location. The USBC can move the thing around, they just don't like the offers they get, or they're afraid the space made available to them isn't enough. So instead of compromising on their end, they ask us to compromise on our end. Eventually, they won't need more than about 30-40 lanes to run the tournament if this keeps up, because Reno fatigue is real and the numbers prove my point. I hope to go once, then I will never go more than a day's drive away from my house again, because of the cost and the hassle. I don't have unlimited time or resources.

The longer point to make is about what the tournament is. I've never understood why handicap wasn't allowed, but if it's a scratch-only tournament, fine -- consider making a third division. Right now, Classified is what, somewhere around 165-170? Then they throw everyone else in the same pot, a range of about 70 pins of average and untold differences in ability. A 200-average bowler has far more in common with a 160 Classified bowler than he does a 240 guy with a regional PBA membership card. I would like to see a cutoff at 200/210, call it Super Classified, whatever. Let it be voluntary -- if you want to compete for a real Eagle, no problem, go bowl with the big boys. Otherwise, roll the middle division where you belong and actually compete with people of like ability. That was kind of the point behind handicap at the start, but as averages have crept up over the years, the system hasn't adapted.

The whole positive-thinking thing about believing you can beat the best is a feel-good story, but it isn't realistic. There's not a rec league basketball player on the globe that could beat Kevin Durant in a game of one-on-one, no matter how much he believes he might. I'd love to know how many Eagles have been won by guys without at least one of the following: PBA card, multiple PBA regional cashes or at least a top-5 finish in an amateur high-roller. I'd bet the answer is "not many."

Jess

Jorge300

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2014, 10:45:27 AM »
Jess,
    I can speak from experience, that $1500 deal weas a steal and you should have jumped on it. That would probably about the cost per ticket normally, if not more. And I have shown that $550/person is also not the real cost to Reno. You can find cheaper tickets than that, but of course, that would ruin your point. Don't most people "save up" for vacations? The bigger the vacation the longer you save. I plan to take my family to Hawaii next year, we are beginning to save now for that. Just like if I wanted to take my family to Reno, we would save for that. That is how things work for the majority of people. You act like this is something only you do.
 
   You are by far the exception to the rule. I speak metaphorically, but I would bet you a trip to Reno that if you asked the majority of the USBC members would not support the raising of their membership fees. And even your exception has a caveat to it. You say they have to guarantee Reno only once every 3 years.....that is not something anyone can do. Look at what happened in 2011 (I believe it was). It was schedule to be in Wichita, but they had to back out. So the tournament had no other real option but to come back to Reno with such short notice.
 
    I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but I am sick and tired of hearing these unrealistic arguements. You ( and I mean all of those with them) act like it is so easy to just pick a city, and that the USBC purposely does not choose cities. Have you done as I asked and talked to your local convention center board? I already know the answer is no. DO you really think there are bunches of cities sending in offers every year? What convention center in it's right mind would tempt losing routine yearly customers like flower, gun, boat, or car shows just to bring in this tournament for 1 year? And just like others have forgotten, the idea of a business is to make money, the tournament is a business, just like any tournament is. No one runs any tournament to lose money or just break even. So why should the USBC Open pick an offer that isn't the best? The numbers from Baton Rouge didn't skyrocket after being in Reno back to back years. Based on your theory we should have seen a dramtic increase in teams, but we didn't. In fact, there were less than before. Of course when faced with this dilema we hear the excuses come out like " well people stopped going after Reno-fatigue", or "BR isn't really East" or "It was (pick your least favorite political figure and insert here)'s fault". Maybe you'll have something new....maybe blame it on aliens and UFO's. The number of teams are dropping for a variety of reasons, membership overall is dropping, the economic downturn of 2008 is still effecting a lot of people are two reason why.
 
    A lot of people have no issue with creating a 3rd division. Heck, even call it the Eagle division so that people know this is where you need to bowl to win an Eagle. But just because someone average 230-240 on THS, doesn't mean they are contenders for an Eagle. There are many 230 average THS bowlers that struggle to average 200 at the Open. I know a few of them personally. And also, you act like a PBA membership is such a big thing. The qualifications to become a PBA member are incredibly easy. All you have to do is average 200 on THS. You can then pay your membership fee and you are a member. The same people you are claiming can't compete are PBA member eligible.
 
   And your last paragraph is a lot of hot air, but not much else. As I said previously, it is not hard to become a PBA member. I am sure there are more PBA Members with multiple regional cashes that haven't won Eagles than their are ones that did. I, for one, have multiple PBA regional cashes including finishing as high as 3rd once, but I have no Eagles. Now I have never felt that I would get enough value out of being a PBA Member to join, but I meet their criteria. And is that a top 5 finish ever in an amateur high roller or just recently? I mean really, these are some of the weakest arguements I have ever seen. We all know good bowlers, the best bowlers are the ones that win Eagles, as it should be. But going in thinking you have no chance, is going to guarantee you will fail. How many stories do we see on Sportscenter of some kid dunking on, faking out, making a great play against an NBA player during one of their camps? There are usually 1 or 2 every summer. I am not saying that just believing you can do well, will win you an Eagle. But thinking you have no chance, will guarantee that you don't win an Eagle, no matter how good you are.
Jorge300

JessN16

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2014, 01:36:23 PM »
Jorge,

I live in a town of 30k. My "convention center board" hosts craft fairs. So no, we won't be getting a tournament any time soon. There are 4-5 cities in my state (Ala.) that have facilities large enough to support the tournament at the size the USBC currently requires. Two of them have already held it within the last 20 years (Huntsville, Mobile), so I don't think the USBC wants to come back to a small state three times in such a short timeframe. I believe the USBC could downsize the venue footprint a bit and perhaps open up some other potential sites, but until they do, we're stuck with what we have.

I don't hold anything against the USBC for going to Reno when Wichita backed out. Emergency situations require emergency response.

I just looked up a Southwest flight to Reno, it's $576/person one-way from BHM to RNO unless I buy a non-refundable ticket, which I would never do so far out in advance. That's not the closest airport to me, but I have family there so I wouldn't have to also pay long-term parking fees. The closest airport doesn't offer Southwest, and I would have to take a puddle-jumper to a connecting flight in ATL. I've run into problems with those carriers with overweight baggage fees, plus the fares are $600+ anyway.

So I'm looking at $3600 in round-trip airline ticket fees (three people) alone after tax. The alternative is to block out two weeks, rent an RV and drive it. I've never rented an RV before so I don't know what the costs are, but I'm betting I'd be on the hook for about $800 in diesel for the trip (2500-3000 mi.).

We even looked into Amtrak a couple of years ago; it's a 4-day trip each way and unless you want to sit upright in a seat all eight days, you have to rent a sleeper. Almost unbelievably, that option is more expensive than the plane -- $4100 round trip.

By contrast, Baton Rouge cost me a tank of gas each way.

Jess
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 01:38:51 PM by JessN16 »

itsallaboutme

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #66 on: March 06, 2014, 02:13:12 PM »
I'm not going back to read 65 replies.  Why is it airfare for 3 people?

Jorge300

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #67 on: March 06, 2014, 02:34:39 PM »
Jess,
     See, it gets clearer by the day. You are adding fees because of your choices. YOU want a refundable ticket. That adds fees. If you want to go cheaper, by non-refundable....oh but you won't so don't complain it cost so much to fly when it is your own choices that are raising the fare. And driving takes 2 weeks?!? How slow do you drive? I drove from Calgary to Reno last year, it took 2 days. I drove from Houston to Alberqurque in 1 day. And you can save on bag fees by shipping your equipment. FedEx is cheap, or use BBE. There are many ways to cut costs which you either purposely (which is my thought) or unintenionally forgot to include. I can say it costs me $ 2000 to get to Reno from Northern California, if I really wanted to, but it isn't realistic and neither are your figures.
 
    Again, anything to avoid doing the work or admitting you are wrong. Now it is that YOU don't think the USBC want to go back to Alabama again. Yet you will gleefully complain about going to Reno, again. All you have to do is take the time to ask. Whether it's your hometown, or a neighboring larger town. I want someone to do this so they can see what the USBC is up against. So you can see that the majority of town have no interest in hosting the tournament because it disrupts their yearly business and potentially drives away that business. And that has nothing to do with size. But since you brought it up, I guess you are then willing to add an additional $5 to your membership over the $5 you willingly agreed to earlier. Because now you are costing the tournament even more revenue by removing rent from the booths that would go away with a smaller footprint. Heck I bet you would even be willing to up it to a cool extra $20/year (the $5 from earlier, the $5 from above and an additional $10) so we can cut the lanes down to 24 instead of 48 and just hold the tournament through September instead of July right?
Jorge300

milorafferty

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2014, 03:25:25 PM »
I'm not going back to read 65 replies.  Why is it airfare for 3 people?

Dude, Mrs. Dude and little Dude.  ;D ;D
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vkowalski1970

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2014, 03:41:53 PM »
FYI

Southwest tickets that are "wanna get away" fares are not refundable, but are reusable with no penalty...so if something happened, you would have a full year to use the full credit....
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Sikxer

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2014, 04:16:51 PM »
Milorafferty,

I'm sure you've probably heard this, but why not fly to Sacramento (2hrs away) or San Francisco (3.5hrs) & drive. The difference in cost will pay for your rental car and bowling ball shipping.  I do this every time we go to Reno since I'm in upstate NY.  I'm flying out 1-stop for under $400!
Only issue is I wouldn't drive if you go in March or early April because Donner Pass can still get some snow.

milorafferty

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2014, 04:27:38 PM »
Milorafferty,

I'm sure you've probably heard this, but why not fly to Sacramento (2hrs away) or San Francisco (3.5hrs) & drive. The difference in cost will pay for your rental car and bowling ball shipping.  I do this every time we go to Reno since I'm in upstate NY.  I'm flying out 1-stop for under $400!
Only issue is I wouldn't drive if you go in March or early April because Donner Pass can still get some snow.

Because I live in Stockton, CA. About 2 1/2 hours away.   8)

You must have me confused with Jess. I don't know why anyone has a problem with Reno, it costs me very little to bowl the open when it's at the stadium. People here need to consider MY needs and stop being so selfish!  ;D
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 04:29:21 PM by milorafferty »
"If guns kill people, do pencils misspell words?"

"If you don't stand for our flag, then don't expect me to give a damn about your feelings."

Sikxer

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #72 on: March 06, 2014, 04:34:26 PM »
 :-[    My reply should have been directed at Jess.
I guess that's what I get for not reading more thoroughly!   My bad  ;D


Milorafferty,

I'm sure you've probably heard this, but why not fly to Sacramento (2hrs away) or San Francisco (3.5hrs) & drive. The difference in cost will pay for your rental car and bowling ball shipping.  I do this every time we go to Reno since I'm in upstate NY.  I'm flying out 1-stop for under $400!
Only issue is I wouldn't drive if you go in March or early April because Donner Pass can still get some snow.

Because I live in Stockton, CA. About 2 1/2 hours away.   8)

You must have me confused with Jess. I don't know why anyone has a problem with Reno, it costs me very little to bowl the open when it's at the stadium. People here need to consider MY needs and stop being so selfish!  ;D
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 04:37:17 PM by Sikxer »

milorafferty

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #73 on: March 06, 2014, 04:51:42 PM »
:-[    My reply should have been directed at Jess.
I guess that's what I get for not reading more thoroughly!   My bad  ;D


Milorafferty,

I'm sure you've probably heard this, but why not fly to Sacramento (2hrs away) or San Francisco (3.5hrs) & drive. The difference in cost will pay for your rental car and bowling ball shipping.  I do this every time we go to Reno since I'm in upstate NY.  I'm flying out 1-stop for under $400!
Only issue is I wouldn't drive if you go in March or early April because Donner Pass can still get some snow.

Because I live in Stockton, CA. About 2 1/2 hours away.   8)

You must have me confused with Jess. I don't know why anyone has a problem with Reno, it costs me very little to bowl the open when it's at the stadium. People here need to consider MY needs and stop being so selfish!  ;D

No problem.

Personally, I think Jess should just move closer to the stadium. Then it would not cost him so much to get there.  ;D

Look at Jorge, he lived in Canada, realized how expensive it was, so he moved closer. Problem solved.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 04:53:25 PM by milorafferty »
"If guns kill people, do pencils misspell words?"

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itsallaboutme

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #74 on: March 06, 2014, 05:44:24 PM »
Thanks for the clarification.  No little Dudes here and Mrs. Dude has never been and will never be invited on any boys trips so I wasn't understanding the mathematics.

Jorge300

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #75 on: March 06, 2014, 05:55:55 PM »
Actually Milo, I just wanted to be closer to you. I need the lessons. Closer to the NBS is just a bonus.  ;D :P :o
Jorge300