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Author Topic: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament  (Read 42448 times)

Mighty Fish

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Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« on: July 08, 2013, 04:38:19 PM »
Some people claim that the scores in the USBC Open Tournament are way too high, and they point to the high number of honor scores in attempting to make that point.

However, once again this year, the OVERALL averages of the tournament field are far from "too high" (as the following breakdown of this year's USBC Open clearly indicate) ...

* REGULAR TEAM ... 173.6 (120,335 games)
* REGULAR DOUBLES/SINGLES ... 173.8 (233,203 games)
* CLASSIFIED TEAM ... 152.1 (34,054 games)
* CLASSIFIED DOUBLES/SINGLES ... 149.3 (73,765 games)
* TEAM (both divisions combined) ... 168.9
* DOUBLES/SINGLES (both divisions combined) ... 168.0
* OVERALL (all divisions, all events) ... 168.3 (461,357 games)

So as I've maintained on many occasions, whereas there are quite a few high scores, only a very few -- outside of the best players and shotmakers -- are able to score at a high level. The statistics speak for themselves.

 

JessN16

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #91 on: March 07, 2014, 06:47:21 PM »
If you really wanted to bowl you would leave mama and jr. at home and you'd be able to go for a little over a grand.  The rest is just excuses.

You guys arguing it shouldn't be in Reno just don't get that no where else wants it.  The economic impact on their cities just isn't great enough for them to consider it. 

Yeah, no one else wants it. That's why Baton Rouge got it in 2012. A scant two years ago, someone appeared to want it.

The USBC could probably get more interest if it would scale back the real estate it requires, but then it wouldn't feel so "special," I suppose. The Baton Rouge venue was way bigger than it needed to be. We were there for weekend shifts in April, middle of the day, and the house was at around 90 percent capacity for team and only about 66 percent capacity for minors. And there weren't nearly as many booths as I was expecting.

As for your first paragraph, you're right in that I'm making a choice. I'm choosing not to be greedy with my time/money in regards to my family. The question you need to ask yourself is how many other bowlers prioritize things the same way I do. If attendance continues to decline, the USBC will have to ask itself whether it's costing itself business. At least in our group, interest is off by about three-fourths, and I doubt we're the only ones experiencing it.

Jess

milorafferty

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #92 on: March 07, 2014, 06:51:10 PM »
It's in Syracuse in 2018, so let's see every squad is full. Otherwise all these "East of the Mississippi" house hacks are full of it.
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JessN16

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #93 on: March 07, 2014, 07:05:48 PM »
It's in Syracuse in 2018, so let's see every squad is full. Otherwise all these "East of the Mississippi" house hacks are full of it.

We're planning on it. It and one of the Reno trips are on our to-do list.

Jess

milorafferty

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #94 on: March 07, 2014, 07:25:12 PM »
It's in Syracuse in 2018, so let's see every squad is full. Otherwise all these "East of the Mississippi" house hacks are full of it.

We're planning on it. It and one of the Reno trips are on our to-do list.

Jess

Then maybe I'll see you there. I go every year no matter where it's held. We always bowl the last week of June.
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Steven

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #95 on: March 08, 2014, 12:03:27 AM »
USBC demands things they don't need to hold the tournament so that more cities don't bid, and they can make the extra money they make and save the money they save holding it in Reno (and now Vegas).  That's a fact that cannot be denied.  No other logical inference can be made. 

Joe, the so called "things they don't need" are what makes the tournament special. Without them, you're essentially proposing that the Open be dumbed down to a bloated city tournament. Many bowlers won't invest in plane flights, multiple travel days, hotel nights, and all the other expenses for an experience they can sign up for close to home. That's certainly the case for me. I like the full blown booth experience. I look forward to bowling in all the side tournaments as much as the Open itself. Take these and other 'unnecessary' components away, and I don't go. And I don't think I'm alone.
 
I'll take it a step further and suggest one scenario resulting from your vision is that participation would decline to mostly hard core teams that are there to bowl for a Eagle. The tournament could become a team version the USBC Masters, where a much smaller field will be paying $400-$500 per person for the privilege of competing.
 
Have fun with that….
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 12:38:59 AM by Steven »

Joe Cool

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #96 on: March 11, 2014, 11:15:56 AM »
Jorge - I have all the facts on my side.  I don't see anyone lining up to back you either.  In fact, YOU even admitted I was right, so you may want to go back and read what you wrote.

Steven - they aren't needed for a city to bid on the tournament.  Everything they want, they can have.  Anywhere.  They just have to open their minds enough to allow it and give up some of the profit$ they are so worried about.  Nothing would go away.  Nothing would change.  They just need to have people that aren't lazy and aren't only worried about money making the decisions. 
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storm making it rain

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #97 on: March 11, 2014, 11:45:03 AM »
It's in Syracuse in 2018, so let's see every squad is full. Otherwise all these "East of the Mississippi" house hacks are full of it.

We're planning on it. It and one of the Reno trips are on our to-do list.

Jess

Jess do you think it's gonna be that much more less expensive to go from Alabama to Syracuse?


Jorge300

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #98 on: March 11, 2014, 11:49:56 AM »
Jorge - I have all the facts on my side.  I don't see anyone lining up to back you either.  In fact, YOU even admitted I was right, so you may want to go back and read what you wrote.

Joe,
    You are literally brain dead. What I said was "in a perfect world you are right, but we don't live in a perfect world". You can now add delusional, to you long list of apparent mental problems. I will respond to you when you either learn to read or decide to join the rest of us reality. Until then you are a waste of breath and space on this board.
Jorge300

mrfrostee

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #99 on: March 11, 2014, 12:10:01 PM »
A perfect world would have it one east coast, one west coast and one middle of the states on a year by year rotating basis. Although I believe this will never happen, due to whatever reason it still is a nice dream.

Jorge300

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #100 on: March 11, 2014, 01:03:48 PM »
Jess,
    I was going to let your last remarks go, but since Joe Uncool can't read and decided to drag me back here, I'll address you as well.
 
    You are still overpricing and overestimating costs to try and make yourself look correct. I told you I found flights from your area for around $400-450 round trip. I don't see why or how this proves anything other than you don't know how to shop for the lowest prices. This isn't "turning up the volume" at all, it's just pointing out the facts. And you are correct, normally how much you spend on travel and how you travel is your business, and no one else's. But no one forced you to come into this thread and complain publically about it either. YOU made that choice and now you must live with the consequences of that choice, which is people picking apart what you post when you post incorrectly. If you didn't want scrutiny, then don't post about it. Simple as that.
 
The tournament got away from Reno 2 years ago....to Baton Rouge. Guess what, the number of teams dropped from the prior years. There was no pick-up from all the people in the East who think it is too expensive to go to Reno. There was no pick-up from people tired of Reno and wanting to go somewhere else. There was no pick up at all. There are two causes for this, one, the total drop in Memberships giving the USBC less to draw from and people still suffering because of the economic downturn. Neither one of these are going away anytime soon. So all of the blue collar east of the Mississippi folks could have made a statement.....show an increase in team entries in Baton Rouge, prove you want it in the East and you will support it and we get........nothing. All we have is lower numbers.
 
     Would you tell any other business to take a loss to produce a product? Why should the USBC be forced to take a loss to run this tournament? That is one of the stupidest things I have heard yet on this topic. I would say 99% of every tournament ever run, is done so to make a profit. Sometime that profit is used to donate to charity, sometimes it goes into the pockets of the tournament organizers, but no tournament will continue if it doesn't make money. You must be living with Joe in his fantasy world.
 
     What I said was, those that seem to complain the most, should get off their butts and do something about it. You want change, you need to make it happen. Coming onto a message board the USBC doesn't even look at to complain about it is stupid. All you are doing is talking to hear yourself talk. It has been shown time and time again that one person can make a difference. But instead you choose to say "not my job". Well then, guess what, the tournament is in Reno more often than not. You can sob, cry, whine, complain all you want....nothing is going to change. And why, it's because you are too lazy to put any effort into changing it. That's you Jess, Joe, and all the rest who come on here and complain. You can yell and scream at me all you like, but that doesn't change that fact. If you REALLY cared as much as you want everyone to believe you do, than you would do something about. You act like it takes 20 hours a week to do this....it takes only a few minutes. Start by researching the local convention center board online. Write them a letter stating your purpose. Follow-up with a phone call or meeting if needed. See if they are will to undertake this. In a month you would have spent maybe 1-2 hours on it. You really don't have 1-2 hours in an entire month of time?!?  Guess what...if you put all the time it took you to compose and write all these replies, you'd be most of the way there.
Jorge300

storm making it rain

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #101 on: March 11, 2014, 01:44:06 PM »
Jess,
    I was going to let your last remarks go, but since Joe Uncool can't read and decided to drag me back here, I'll address you as well.
 
    You are still overpricing and overestimating costs to try and make yourself look correct. I told you I found flights from your area for around $400-450 round trip. I don't see why or how this proves anything other than you don't know how to shop for the lowest prices. This isn't "turning up the volume" at all, it's just pointing out the facts. And you are correct, normally how much you spend on travel and how you travel is your business, and no one else's. But no one forced you to come into this thread and complain publically about it either. YOU made that choice and now you must live with the consequences of that choice, which is people picking apart what you post when you post incorrectly. If you didn't want scrutiny, then don't post about it. Simple as that.
 
The tournament got away from Reno 2 years ago....to Baton Rouge. Guess what, the number of teams dropped from the prior years. There was no pick-up from all the people in the East who think it is too expensive to go to Reno. There was no pick-up from people tired of Reno and wanting to go somewhere else. There was no pick up at all. There are two causes for this, one, the total drop in Memberships giving the USBC less to draw from and people still suffering because of the economic downturn. Neither one of these are going away anytime soon. So all of the blue collar east of the Mississippi folks could have made a statement.....show an increase in team entries in Baton Rouge, prove you want it in the East and you will support it and we get........nothing. All we have is lower numbers.
 
     Would you tell any other business to take a loss to produce a product? Why should the USBC be forced to take a loss to run this tournament? That is one of the stupidest things I have heard yet on this topic. I would say 99% of every tournament ever run, is done so to make a profit. Sometime that profit is used to donate to charity, sometimes it goes into the pockets of the tournament organizers, but no tournament will continue if it doesn't make money. You must be living with Joe in his fantasy world.
 
     What I said was, those that seem to complain the most, should get off their butts and do something about it. You want change, you need to make it happen. Coming onto a message board the USBC doesn't even look at to complain about it is stupid. All you are doing is talking to hear yourself talk. It has been shown time and time again that one person can make a difference. But instead you choose to say "not my job". Well then, guess what, the tournament is in Reno more often than not. You can sob, cry, whine, complain all you want....nothing is going to change. And why, it's because you are too lazy to put any effort into changing it. That's you Jess, Joe, and all the rest who come on here and complain. You can yell and scream at me all you like, but that doesn't change that fact. If you REALLY cared as much as you want everyone to believe you do, than you would do something about. You act like it takes 20 hours a week to do this....it takes only a few minutes. Start by researching the local convention center board online. Write them a letter stating your purpose. Follow-up with a phone call or meeting if needed. See if they are will to undertake this. In a month you would have spent maybe 1-2 hours on it. You really don't have 1-2 hours in an entire month of time?!?  Guess what...if you put all the time it took you to compose and write all these replies, you'd be most of the way there.

I'm from the East Coast and i've went to nationals for the last 13 years.  Flying to Baton Rouge was the same price as i'm paying to fly to Reno this year.  I think the problem is most people want to either drive or fly for "wanna get away" pricing.  I'm going to bowl for as long as I can for nationals, granted I MAKE money by bowling, so it's not a huge deal how much I pay to fly.  Only thing that happens for me goign to Reno every year is most likely i will fly in bowl some side events the day before the actual Open and fly home the next day.  Where as in some other cities i may extend my stay a couple of days.  Either way is fine with me personally.

Joe Cool

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #102 on: March 19, 2014, 08:28:11 AM »
Jorge, you should be embarrassed.  Clueless Jorge is your new name since you can't read or comprehend what others are writing.  You're just another internet know-it-all blowhard.  You should be able to understand this since I stooped to your 2nd greade reading level.

The simple reality is that they don't need the things they claim to need to hold the tournament.  That is an undeniable fact.  The other undeniable fact is that they can provide the exact same bowler experience for people in other locations with less than they demand to hold the tournament with a little creativity and maybe a little more money.  Two undeniable facts that nobody living in the real world can make a case against.

What that means is they can hold the tournament with all the bells and whistles they have now anywhere in the country with much lower requirements than they require now.  The reason they won't lower the requirements is because they won't squeeze every last buck out of us and the sponsors if they lower the requirement and allow other cities to bid.  That Jorge is the real world.  It is you that seems to be stuck in the imaginary world with Mr Rodgers and his train set.  There's nothing "perfect" required, the requirement is that greed won't trump their decision-making process.

So all your long, drawn out, insult laden responses that you like to make ignore the simplest of facts that make your whole entire point not just useless, but completely and utterly incorrect.  You could not possibly be more wrong than you are, and that is amazing.  Congratulations.

Just admit you're wrong.  Be a big boy and admit that you got this one wrong.  Maybe you'll earn some of the respect you think you can get by insulting people.
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Good Times Good Times

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #103 on: March 19, 2014, 09:16:26 AM »
Joe, the so called "things they don't need" are what makes the tournament special. Without them, you're essentially proposing that the Open be dumbed down to a bloated city tournament. Many bowlers won't invest in plane flights, multiple travel days, hotel nights, and all the other expenses for an experience they can sign up for close to home. That's certainly the case for me. I like the full blown booth experience. I look forward to bowling in all the side tournaments as much as the Open itself. Take these and other 'unnecessary' components away, and I don't go. And I don't think I'm alone.

I've yet to formulate my opinion on this.

I guess my question would be for Joe Cool would be, and I think this is a fair question:  What SPECIFICALLY are the "things they don't need"?  This year will be my first USBC Open Championships and I've been told it's a fun experience. 

So, what specifically are the things "they (USBC) don't need" that I personally will experience this year?  What is the expensive "overkill" that will be offered to me?  I'm looking for specifics here........
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 09:19:14 AM by Good Times Good Times »
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Steven

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #104 on: March 19, 2014, 11:46:18 AM »

What that means is they can hold the tournament with all the bells and whistles they have now anywhere in the country with much lower requirements than they require now. 


Joe, I'm trying to understand what "much lower requirements" means. If it's just profit, sorry. Jorge has covered that well, and you can't win that argument. If it's something else besides dumbing down the overall bowler experience, please explain.

Good Times Good Times

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #105 on: March 19, 2014, 12:22:15 PM »

What that means is they can hold the tournament with all the bells and whistles they have now anywhere in the country with much lower requirements than they require now. 


Joe, I'm trying to understand what "much lower requirements" means. If it's just profit, sorry. Jorge has covered that well, and you can't win that argument. If it's something else besides dumbing down the overall bowler experience, please explain.

This is where I think the discussion should go at this point logically.  Since we have "undeniable facts" I want to see them and verify.  Is there a public expense report, cost breakdown / profit numbers available?  Since there are "undeniable facts" they should (must) be backed by hard empirical data, I'm not saying it doesn't exist (truly don't know), I just wanna see it.

What is the "things they claim to need" stated, defined and measured? 

What does JC's "utopia" / conceptual prototype literally look like and how does it currently deviate from the current experience? 

I've yet to experience Reno (I will be going this year) and I want to look for these things while there.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 12:26:50 PM by Good Times Good Times »
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