Author Topic: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013? (Read 5272 times)

riggs · « **on:** May 05, 2011, 03:10:57 AM »

Here's how it can happen and what USBC says about the issue. Let's hope it happens!

http://host.madison.com/sports/recreation/bowling/article_ff84330a-773f-11e0-9781-001cc4c03286.html

The No. 1 source for bowling news, analysis and opinion is my blog, The 11th Frame, which is here:
http://host.madison.com/sports/recreation/bowling/

riggs · « **Reply #16 on:** May 10, 2011, 07:03:13 AM »

I said there was misinformation in your STATEMENTS ... I didn't say you were stupid or anything like tha. I don't know you and have no idea who you are or your background. You just need to be more educated in these matters. Sorry but that's the truth.

Call up a PBA lane man or a USBC lane man and talk to them, as I have.

There is FAR MORE damage done to a lane to have it bowled on multiple shifts without oiling where today's balls remove a swath of oil and then shots are continually thrown on the lane than to have it cleaned and re-oiled. Oil protects the lane from the ball -- when it's transitioned off the lane is when it's vulnerable. Every expert I have ever talked to has said cleaning the lane is not a significant factor compared to bowling itself.

The No. 1 source for bowling news, analysis and opinion is my blog, The 11th Frame, which is here:
http://host.madison.com/sports/recreation/bowling/

riggs · « **Reply #17 on:** May 10, 2011, 07:08:03 AM »

This that you said:

"On top of that, when you oiling and stripping a lane at the rate USBC will be, they will not remove all the conditioner on the lanes throughout the day. It will NOT be a level playing field, as the day goes on as well as the tournament goes on."

Is true but again my statement is a level playing field as BEST AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE. Perhaps a new schedule will make it possible to double strip every time they oil, which would make it a essentially pristine surface each shift.

But even if they don't a simple strip and re-oil before every squad is FAR MORE FAIR than squads following squads without re-oiling. Bowler A's group bowls minors after our team vs. Bowler B after a group of Classified bowlers throwing plastic all over the lane. Any fairness there?

My gawd man. You can't possibly argue against fresh oil for every squad if your primary goal for this tournament is equity for all competitors AS BEST AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE.

That is absolute ignorance and if you take that as a personal attack, I'm sorry, but it's reality.

The No. 1 source for bowling news, analysis and opinion is my blog, The 11th Frame, which is here:
http://host.madison.com/sports/recreation/bowling/

Edited by riggs on 5/10/2011 at 7:11 AM

Nails · « **Reply #18 on:** May 10, 2011, 07:19:22 AM »

If the lane machine isn't capable of stripping the lane properly, it shouldn't be used period, whether it's once a day or 6 times a day.

Telling it like it is.

riggs · « **Reply #19 on:** May 10, 2011, 07:35:50 AM »

Nails, it is a matter of degree. One strip and re-oil comes very, very close to eliminating all pattern memory. Double stripping removes ALL pattern memory.

This is a far greater issue when it's tough pattern (like PBA) over a house shot. It is less of an issue when you are applying the same pattern squad after squad.

And not stripping would be a disaster and not feasible = dirt, ball calls, an totally ridiculous condition, and zero equity.

It needs to be understood that the goal is equity for all as MUCH AS IS HUMANLY POSSIBLE. The situation now is grossly unfair for minor events. Strip and re-oil for every squad is about 99 percent fair where double strip and re-oil would be 100 percent fair as MUCH AS IS HUMANLY POSSIBLE.

You can't let the perfect be the enemy of the very, very good when what we have now is horrendously unfair!!!

The No. 1 source for bowling news, analysis and opinion is my blog, The 11th Frame, which is here:
http://host.madison.com/sports/recreation/bowling/

230-n-up-or-bust · « **Reply #20 on:** May 10, 2011, 08:02:48 AM »

I'm just a public school graduate, and a novice bowler, but I would have thought this news would have been met with widespread elation.

Will the conditions be EXACTLY the same throughout the entire D/S squads? No. To what variance the conditions will differ would require a topographic reading from every board, lane, and squad. Maybe Kegel can incorporate something over the next few seasons into the oiling machines to monitor that as the lanes are dressed.

Will the conditions be INFINITELY more similar and equitable for ALL bowlers? How in the world can the answer to that question be, "yes"?

Return with your shield or on it. Strength and honor. Help control the population of Avenging Unicorns. Arm yourselves accordingly. MTIXE

"I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous."-Nick Faldo

riggs · « **Reply #21 on:** May 10, 2011, 08:12:00 AM »

This is from Bryan Hill, who was PBA Midwest Region lane man for several years before PBA ended its regional lane man program as a budget cut and who also was a proprietor:

"I have been to seminars that told of slow deterioration of surfaces over many years due to detergents, however, I would much rather take my chances with the cleaning and re-oiling for all squads as opposed to the abrasive damage that can and will occur with the current ball surfaces.
Another argument for cleaning and re-oiling is dust and dirt.
The average human body releases approximately 2# of dead skin cells per day.
The longer the lanes sit with dust and dirt, the more abrasive the situation will get.
Just the knowledge I have accrued. And a bit of my personal opinion."

The No. 1 source for bowling news, analysis and opinion is my blog, The 11th Frame, which is here:
http://host.madison.com/sports/recreation/bowling/

icefiction · « **Reply #22 on:** May 10, 2011, 08:12:23 AM »

I am afraid I must agree with Rico on this one, having oiled lanes myself at centers I have worked at and having spent time a Kegel with their staff, I know that certain lanes can be stripped twice and still leave a residue of oil on the surface in certain areas of the lane. I saw and was told of this at the Kegel facility so I would have to put some factual basis behind that statement. Also having bowled and run the lanes at Morehead State University for a couple of years I speak from experience of oiling and stripping sometimes six to ten times in one day and putting out the same pattern, and it will play differently because of the memory built into the lane and the lane machine.

Hence my comment in an earlier post, if level is such an issue then we should all bowl on our own freshly oiled lane.

230-n-up-or-bust · « **Reply #23 on:** May 10, 2011, 08:43:49 AM »

Matt Weggen, current AE leader @ the OC in Reno shot something like 640-ish in team, on fresh, the day before he shot back-to-back 800's in minors....WITH THE SAME BALL. Nobody's expecting the shot to remain IDENTICAL for Team vs. Minors for every lane, foot, board, and squad throughout the tournament, but can anyone actually say that those two shots Weggen bowled on were so far removed from any discrepancy that could have been created with something like some lane residue from stripping agents that might have lost some of their overall effectiveness due to lane memory?

Return with your shield or on it. Strength and honor. Help control the population of Avenging Unicorns. Arm yourselves accordingly. MTIXE

"I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous."-Nick Faldo

riggs · « **Reply #24 on:** May 10, 2011, 09:00:42 AM »

AGAIN we're talking about as level a paying field as is HUMANLY POSSIBLE. It is NOT POSSIBLE to have every fresly oiled lane play exactly the same day to day in a center even with a computerized lane machine and no one with any knowledge of the game would ever say so.

AGAIN, do not let the perfect be the enemy of the very, very good.

Heck, once a lane has been touched with any oil I would wager that you could clean it 1,000 times and probably find some molecules of oil on it so therefore there is memory.

So why ever strip? And why ever oil?

Sigh.

icefiction wrote on 5/10/2011 8:12 AM:
I am afraid I must agree with Rico on this one, having oiled lanes myself at centers I have worked at and having spent time a Kegel with their staff, I know that certain lanes can be stripped twice and still leave a residue of oil on the surface in certain areas of the lane. I saw and was told of this at the Kegel facility so I would have to put some factual basis behind that statement. Also having bowled and run the lanes at Morehead State University for a couple of years I speak from experience of oiling and stripping sometimes six to ten times in one day and putting out the same pattern, and it will play differently because of the memory built into the lane and the lane machine.

Hence my comment in an earlier post, if level is such an issue then we should all bowl on our own freshly oiled lane.

The No. 1 source for bowling news, analysis and opinion is my blog, The 11th Frame, which is here:
http://host.madison.com/sports/recreation/bowling/

icefiction · « **Reply #25 on:** May 10, 2011, 09:22:39 AM »

Agreed Riggs. But how do you quantify Very, Very Good. That is the whole issue regarding lane conditions and variables, if you can not clearly define and quantify them than everything regarding them becomes opinion or estimates or guesses or etc..

Edited by icefiction on 5/10/2011 at 9:28 AM

riggs · « **Reply #26 on:** May 10, 2011, 10:09:28 AM »

A level playing field to start for all AS BEST AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE.

Read the blog that started this topic and it's all there.

The No. 1 source for bowling news, analysis and opinion is my blog, The 11th Frame, which is here:
http://host.madison.com/sports/recreation/bowling/

« **Reply #27 on:** May 10, 2011, 10:12:55 AM »

I can see and understand both sides of this issue. Both sides seem to agree that perfect is really not going to happen. Although the perfect situation will never exist, why not try to improve the current procedure?

If the proposed new procedures help to level the playing field, then it should be a step in the right direction. Again, maybe a completely level playing field isn't possible, but as it stands if you follow the wrong group of bowlers it can make a difficult pattern very difficult. It happened to me a few years back, and I vowed to never again bowl that (11:30am) minors squad again. The heads were scorched and the back ends were extremely touchy between washout or Brooklyn (or worse). Other bowlers on the same squad who followed different groups had a lot of "forgiveness" on the lanes and were scoring well. I had to compete against them in brackets as well as the regular tournament competition.

The Open is fun for me. I like the challenge of a more demanding shot, as long as the people I am competing against have the same demanding condition to start with. If they are adept at creating area for themselves on the lanes, then great. The Open also can be quite expensive by the time you add the entry fee, travel costs, hotel costs, meals, souvenirs, you name it. If there is a way to find equity on the lanes then I am for it.

Again. Granted that even with fresh oil it isn't a perfect situation, if it is a step in the right direction then why not give it a try? If it does not accomplish it's goal, the USBC can scrap it and go back to the current procedures, or anything else they can think of between now and then. I am not taking sides on this issue, except to say what have we got to lose by trying it?

Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Brunswick Pro Shop Staff

www.brunswickbowling.com

The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.

Balldoctor · « **Reply #28 on:** May 10, 2011, 10:14:38 AM »

Good discussion, don't let it become personal.

Riggs, perhaps you could interview Rico.

That could be informative and entertaining.

Remember, ALL BOWLING IS LOCAL!

icefiction · « **Reply #29 on:** May 10, 2011, 10:22:39 AM »

Riggs, I am assuming your last post was aimed at the question I asked you, so here is my response:

A level playing field as best as humanly possible, is a much to broad statement to work with. What is humanly possible for one person is not the same for the person standing next to them, so right away you have lost the level playing field. Also if you are going to go with the humanly possible concept then I am assuming you are going to want kegel to come out and run their topography machine over each lane to make sure they all have the exact same topography, then make adjustments as needed. Then we would have to make sure the atmosphere in the bowling center is regulated more tightly, along with lighting and the time of the oiling takes place.

So since all these things are well within human capability I am assuming these would be the least of the initial steps you would expect to see done, am I correct Riggs?

Balldoctor · « **Reply #30 on:** May 10, 2011, 10:25:13 AM »

I like all fresh but it is not without potential problems.

The lane machines run 3 times a day now.

They would have to run 4 more times per day.

That is 4 more times for a problem to occur.

Less time to do the test and repair machines.

Much more manpower needed as well.

Every year they are having problems getting and keeping

qualified help.

I see bowlers fees going up if this happens.

But I still like the idea.

Remember, ALL BOWLING IS LOCAL!

Author Topic: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013? (Read 5272 times)

riggs

Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?

riggs

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riggs

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Nails

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riggs

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230-n-up-or-bust

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riggs

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icefiction

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230-n-up-or-bust

Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?

riggs

Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?

icefiction

Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?

riggs

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Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?

Balldoctor

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icefiction

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Balldoctor

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