Author Topic: Have at it....USBC Open Changes (Read 18987 times)

Radical In RI · « **on:** October 27, 2015, 10:53:22 AM »

http://bowl.com/News/NewsDetails.aspx?id=23622325499

Olderdude · « **Reply #46 on:** October 29, 2015, 02:28:15 PM »

I agree on the releasing of the pattern just weird.

mrwizerd · « **Reply #47 on:** October 29, 2015, 04:44:01 PM »

Quote from: milorafferty on October 28, 2015, 05:05:12 PM

Quote from: soonerdallas on October 28, 2015, 04:55:57 PM
I need to clear up something on my stance on brackets. I don't care that I'm losing bowlers to another division and won't be bowling up against them. I Care about how many brackets I would be losing per squad. I just want there to be a full set of brackets is all, I would prefer my whole squad to be guys averaging in the 210 or over division because if I know if I throw it to my ability it will be a good day. And in order to roll a squad at the open championships your going to have to beat every 230+ bowler in that squad and that makes a guy at 205 I very small part of that equation. I know not everyone's stance on that is the same but that's just my thoughts.

I think you are right about this. I know I won't be playing brackets anymore. I'm a 220ish house hack who averages around 190ish in sport shot leagues. When there are a lot of foolish THS fish in the pond, I'm more than willing to cast my line in brackets, but this will be the last year I do. I don't intend to be the smallest fish in the pond and I'm not giving my money away

I am in the same boat...220 THS and 170-180's on Sport. For Vegas Nationals I will have to do some serious thinking about whether to get in brackets or not. I also don't want to be giving my money away.

Olderdude · « **Reply #48 on:** October 29, 2015, 05:06:47 PM »

Quote from: mrwizerd on October 29, 2015, 04:44:01 PM

Quote from: milorafferty on October 28, 2015, 05:05:12 PM
Quote from: soonerdallas on October 28, 2015, 04:55:57 PM
I need to clear up something on my stance on brackets. I don't care that I'm losing bowlers to another division and won't be bowling up against them. I Care about how many brackets I would be losing per squad. I just want there to be a full set of brackets is all, I would prefer my whole squad to be guys averaging in the 210 or over division because if I know if I throw it to my ability it will be a good day. And in order to roll a squad at the open championships your going to have to beat every 230+ bowler in that squad and that makes a guy at 205 I very small part of that equation. I know not everyone's stance on that is the same but that's just my thoughts.

I think you are right about this. I know I won't be playing brackets anymore. I'm a 220ish house hack who averages around 190ish in sport shot leagues. When there are a lot of foolish THS fish in the pond, I'm more than willing to cast my line in brackets, but this will be the last year I do. I don't intend to be the smallest fish in the pond and I'm not giving my money away

I am in the same boat...220 THS and 170-180's on Sport. For Vegas Nationals I will have to do some serious thinking about whether to get in brackets or not. I also don't want to be giving my money away.

The question is: are you still going? I guess there is one good thing coming out of all this is there are a lot of us who are in the same boat

milorafferty · « **Reply #49 on:** October 29, 2015, 05:46:45 PM »

Quote from: Olderdude on October 29, 2015, 05:06:47 PM

Quote from: mrwizerd on October 29, 2015, 04:44:01 PM
Quote from: milorafferty on October 28, 2015, 05:05:12 PM
Quote from: soonerdallas on October 28, 2015, 04:55:57 PM
I need to clear up something on my stance on brackets. I don't care that I'm losing bowlers to another division and won't be bowling up against them. I Care about how many brackets I would be losing per squad. I just want there to be a full set of brackets is all, I would prefer my whole squad to be guys averaging in the 210 or over division because if I know if I throw it to my ability it will be a good day. And in order to roll a squad at the open championships your going to have to beat every 230+ bowler in that squad and that makes a guy at 205 I very small part of that equation. I know not everyone's stance on that is the same but that's just my thoughts.

I think you are right about this. I know I won't be playing brackets anymore. I'm a 220ish house hack who averages around 190ish in sport shot leagues. When there are a lot of foolish THS fish in the pond, I'm more than willing to cast my line in brackets, but this will be the last year I do. I don't intend to be the smallest fish in the pond and I'm not giving my money away

I am in the same boat...220 THS and 170-180's on Sport. For Vegas Nationals I will have to do some serious thinking about whether to get in brackets or not. I also don't want to be giving my money away.

The question is: are you still going? I guess there is one good thing coming out of all this is there are a lot of us who are in the same boat

Oh yea, I'll still be going and will organize multiple teams as well. I love bowling the Open, even without the brackets to pay for the trip. I'm used to that though, I took a bath in the brackets in El Paso.

I did however, come home with a beautiful pair of hand made cowboy boots!

mrwizerd · « **Reply #50 on:** October 29, 2015, 10:15:55 PM »

Quote from: Olderdude on October 29, 2015, 05:06:47 PM

Quote from: mrwizerd on October 29, 2015, 04:44:01 PM
Quote from: milorafferty on October 28, 2015, 05:05:12 PM
Quote from: soonerdallas on October 28, 2015, 04:55:57 PM
I need to clear up something on my stance on brackets. I don't care that I'm losing bowlers to another division and won't be bowling up against them. I Care about how many brackets I would be losing per squad. I just want there to be a full set of brackets is all, I would prefer my whole squad to be guys averaging in the 210 or over division because if I know if I throw it to my ability it will be a good day. And in order to roll a squad at the open championships your going to have to beat every 230+ bowler in that squad and that makes a guy at 205 I very small part of that equation. I know not everyone's stance on that is the same but that's just my thoughts.

I think you are right about this. I know I won't be playing brackets anymore. I'm a 220ish house hack who averages around 190ish in sport shot leagues. When there are a lot of foolish THS fish in the pond, I'm more than willing to cast my line in brackets, but this will be the last year I do. I don't intend to be the smallest fish in the pond and I'm not giving my money away

I am in the same boat...220 THS and 170-180's on Sport. For Vegas Nationals I will have to do some serious thinking about whether to get in brackets or not. I also don't want to be giving my money away.

The question is: are you still going? I guess there is one good thing coming out of all this is there are a lot of us who are in the same boat

Yes, I will still be going. Whether I drop my few bucks into brackets is something that is still up in the air.

Gene J Kanak · « **Reply #51 on:** October 30, 2015, 09:29:24 AM »

I will still be going for the foreseeable future. As for brackets, I only put in about $50 per event as it is, so that probably won't change either. Now, if I were a USBC employee, there is no way I'd continue going. I don't make much off of the tournament now, but I don't think there is any way that I could justify dropping money on travel, hotel, entries, and extras when there is literally zero chance of me getting any money back.

UCFalum300 · « **Reply #52 on:** October 30, 2015, 10:51:15 PM »

At this point I don't think anything will kill entries. But I have a few thoughts. First is by having a middle division and allowing those in that division to play 2 sets of brackets (middle and open division) brings the possibility of sandbagging. Who's to say I don't sacrifice the next 3 years to average 200 and clean up in both sets of brackets. Which is possible. Unfortunately I know guys in this area who are thinking about it because that's all they view this event as. I cant and never will do that because I choose to bowl for the idea of winning an eagle. I've been close. Top 5 in team 2 years ago and 4th this year in all events.

Second I truly believe the sport needs incentives to get people to try and achieve higher accomplishments. By this, the division's should pay accordingly. What I mean by this is the open 210-higher should pay the highest regardless of entries. To me if its not this way you are devaluing the eagle and winning at the highest level. This once again goes back to sandbagging, if I know more entries will be in the middle division why try and get better when money will be better in that division.

Removing the live stream is dumb. What they forget is bowling is about self promotion as well as promoting the products many of us are under contract with. I have incentives in my contracts for nations including my finish as well as live streaming. By removing this it removes those opportunities that are already dwindled. Also for some people who don't have the chance to practice on the patterns before it gives an idea of what to do. This only helps the event.

Finally not allowing usbc workers to cash is beyond belief. They pay to travel and pay to bowl why don't they get the cash?

Those are my views.

MI 2 AZ · « **Reply #53 on:** October 31, 2015, 02:01:42 AM »

Quote from: UCFalum300 on October 30, 2015, 10:51:15 PM

Second I truly believe the sport needs incentives to get people to try and achieve higher accomplishments. By this, the division's should pay accordingly. What I mean by this is the open 210-higher should pay the highest regardless of entries. To me if its not this way you are devaluing the eagle and winning at the highest level. This once again goes back to sandbagging, if I know more entries will be in the middle division why try and get better when money will be better in that division.

I agree with this even though I am not talented enough to compete in the upper level.

txbowler · « **Reply #54 on:** November 01, 2015, 11:53:31 AM »

One thing I wonder if no one considers, is that maybe the 181-199 (I left off 200-209 on purpose, more on that in a minute) cannot get any better?

I don't know how many of you have bowled in mixed leagues, but the if you truly watch the 181-199 bowlers, you can usually find the flaw in their game. Bad knees, older, poor form, terrible spare shooting, terrible ball choices etc.

You expect this person to spend money on coaching and practice? Get real. They usually have families and jobs and bowling is their fun with buddies. Sure they want to bowl good, and yes they goto nationals, but they would never realistically get better.

Now back to the 200-209. That cut off was pure percentages. If you found Chad Murphy's comments, they picked that number because it put 39% of current entrants in both the Standard and Open division. It had nothing to do with 209 being a magic level of ability. Just balancing the divisions.

And if you wish to sandbag so you can drop to the standard division and double dip, just remember, the great white sharks are back (LOL). You load up in both division brackets and you find out that Jason Belmonte happens to be bowling your squad and you may end up being shark bait in that open division.

Tex · « **Reply #55 on:** November 01, 2015, 01:37:07 PM »

Due to surgery I am currently out of bowling, but I am signed up for Nationals next year. I love bowling this tournament and base my year around it. IF I had made El Paso it would have been my 20th consecutive tournament. For most of those events they did not release the pattern and for those I didn't make a lot of cash, but one of my biggest was during that time. Once the ITRC was built in Arlington, that all changed and my teams approach to this tournament did as well. We have practiced the past few years to prepare and it has paid off when some good finishes. My plan is even once patterns are not released, to still go to the training center and practice on tough conditions. No won't be THE nationals patterns, but they are never exact anyway and the goal is to try and get a game plan and to work on matching up better with tough conditions. I will still go to the Nationals (health allows) and I will spend the same amount of money. As far as average.. My Nationals average is about 10 pins less than league, but since I have been injured for the past 9 years I have been a 20? average in league and don't bowl in the highest scoring centers just due to my home house and a tough travel league.

Now, I do think it will lower the prize fund. I know in Texas even with all our great bowlers the top division at state doesn't pay worth a flip. We won team a few years back and it was so bad it State isn't in DFW we don't even waste our time anymore. That could happen at Nationals as well. I hope it has the affect they are wanting and gets more of that average bowlers to come out since they might feel like they have a better chance.

UCFalum300 · « **Reply #56 on:** November 01, 2015, 08:58:50 PM »

Quote from: txbowler on November 01, 2015, 11:53:31 AM

One thing I wonder if no one considers, is that maybe the 181-199 (I left off 200-209 on purpose, more on that in a minute) cannot get any better?

I don't know how many of you have bowled in mixed leagues, but the if you truly watch the 181-199 bowlers, you can usually find the flaw in their game. Bad knees, older, poor form, terrible spare shooting, terrible ball choices etc.

You expect this person to spend money on coaching and practice? Get real. They usually have families and jobs and bowling is their fun with buddies. Sure they want to bowl good, and yes they goto nationals, but they would never realistically get better.

Now back to the 200-209. That cut off was pure percentages. If you found Chad Murphy's comments, they picked that number because it put 39% of current entrants in both the Standard and Open division. It had nothing to do with 209 being a magic level of ability. Just balancing the divisions.

And if you wish to sandbag so you can drop to the standard division and double dip, just remember, the great white sharks are back (LOL). You load up in both division brackets and you find out that Jason Belmonte happens to be bowling your squad and you may end up being shark bait in that open division.

You are right many of them use it as fun. and that is great. We all love or at least should love the sport. I completely understand not wanting to or not having the time to practice and get better but this doesn't mean the sport should make that ok or cater to that. This is why I am saying the highest division should be more valued and higher paying. I work full time have a wife and still find a way to practice, put in my time, bowl tournaments to reach the level I compete at so why should the person who bowls 3 or 6 games a week be bowling for more prestige and value. I know this may seem harsh but it's true. With handicap taking more and more hold in areas the sport is loosing a reason to get better. No other sport does this. In our area there is a handicap tournament that guarantees the top 5 sports and first being 10000 almost every week regardless of entries. Atleast 2 times a month minimum. There is only 2 that guarantee first place of 1000. And it has to get 40 or 50 entries to do that.
There is a big handicap and scratch tournament in our area a few times a year. The prizes are 10000 minimum for handicap and 2000 for scratch. Why should I get better work hard at the game when I can sandbag or play the system to bowl for 5 the men's the money?

?
I would love to see amateur golfing for millions while the best in the world golf golf for thousands. Or a local baseball game paying hundreds of thousands while the big guns play for peanuts....

cory867 · « **Reply #57 on:** November 02, 2015, 08:34:42 AM »

I still think that the lower divisions should not receive eagles. They should get some other award for winning their division but the eagle should go to the best scores only. And yes, before someone piles on, if a lower division winner has a higher score than the higher division then they should get the eagle. Make the eagle still mean something and not devalue its significance by handing out more of them. Just my opinion.

txbowler · « **Reply #58 on:** November 02, 2015, 11:30:36 AM »

UCFalum300,

Where in the other sports you mention are the other players subsidizing the pro's paychecks? That is what you are asking for. We cannot make enough money so take away money from another division's entry's and help us.

Once that happens, I won't bowl, and I am in the open division.

When I was in my 20's I had dreams of bowling the tour. And according to several people, I may have had the ability to compete. But I quickly found out the my day job was going to pay me more than the top 10 PBA earnings on tour. I so went the day job route. Now maybe other bowlers aren't as fortunate as I was on the day job and bowling is the only real opportunity to feed themselves and their families.

Tough life. This isn't the pro golf world where to you can just make the cut every tournament and end the year almost a millionaire for the year. If I recall, correctly, the top 125 on the PGA list retain their main tour card each year and last year, 125th was $3.3 milion in earnings. Why? Sponsorship and TV money.

Bowling has very little of that, and trying to get the open division payoffs padded from other entrants because you think you've earned it? I find that really funny.

Sean Rash posted a comment in one of the facebook posts recently where someone said they wished there was an old 70's style tour today. Sean said he has no time for it if it was. He bowls 30 weeks a year all over the world and makes a great living at it. If you are really as good as you think you are, you can bowl all you want and make a good deal of money. However, you have to beat the best in the world every week to do it, ARE YOU REALLY THAT GOOD?

UCFalum300 · « **Reply #59 on:** November 02, 2015, 02:48:54 PM »

txbowler,

First I want to say I read your post a few times because I like the open discussion on the event and bowling itself and you opened my eyes to a few things as well as others i have talked to and read on this post have.

You and I are in similiar places it sounds like. I had dreams of going on tour when there was a week to week tour, tour trials, points for regional players meaning a full time spot on the national tour. But I decided to go with education first and fore most. Got a degree and fortunately my dad and I own and run a successful business together so bowling is something that I do because I enjoy getting better and enjoy the competition. Money is a second thought when it comes to this. I know it may not seem that way with my arguments but we are taking about a big tournament with tons of entries and money on the line.

I get your point on the subsidizing pros paychecks. But look at it this way. How may "pros" already bowl the event? As it stands right now you can still have 2 "pros" on your team already. And how many guys that bowl it are just as good as them but dont want the life on the road anymore or have jobs that they enjoy and love and dont want to go out on tour? Guys like John Janawicz, Vernon Peterson, Rob Gotchall, and many more who I consider better than some of the pros that are now allowed to bowl. I think what you mean are the touring guys like belmo, barnes, rash, oneil etc correct? You are adding 50 guys that couldn't bowl before. So how much subsidizing is really going to happen?

When I say I think it should pay accordingly I don't mean that the open division should pay 15k for first and the other divisions pay 500. But I am saying there still should be some sort of variation in pay between the divisions. Regardless of what division has the most entries. Lets just say the most entries are from the middle division, then open, then classified. i am still in favor of distributing money to the classified division as well for a good payout, but the best in the the event should have a potential for a the most out there. I am in no say saying of making it to where people make their living off this event alone. I don't expect it to be top heavy on the open division side. But I still believe our sport need some sort of incentive to get to a higher level. If the middle division does actually pay more than the open why get to the open division? Our sport is the only one that doesn't have that incentive or reason to get better. Even if I was going to be in either of the 2 other divisions I would feel this way because it would give me more reason to get better. I have talked to friends and other people in the classified and now middle division and they all feel the same way.

This once again goes back to sandbagging. There now a reason for people to perform under their ability to take advantage of the situation.

You are correct on the golf part of sponsorship and money. But lets look at golf. Does the web.com tour make as much as the pro tour? It used to be called the hooters tour a while back (stage or 2 below the web.com tour) pay more than the web.com tour? The answer is no. The title, prestige and money are the incentive to get better.

I did not see Rash's post on Facebook but if the tour was what it was like when he first went on when it was week in and week out would he have to travel overseas to bowl? That a questions he would have to answer.

txbowler · « **Reply #60 on:** November 02, 2015, 05:51:00 PM »

I understand your point and I with you know that the sandbagging is coming.

So lets say USBC were to agree with you and try to implement this and take some percentage of money (5-10% or whatever it is) to boost the open division as you suggest.

And lets say you are a true 190 average bowler now considering bowling the tournament because you now feel you have a fair chance against mostly equal ability bowlers (sandbaggers aside).

And you read, that if the open division does not have enough entries (this is an entry driven tournament), then prize money from another division may be reallocated to the open division to:

??

How would USBC word this in any manner that if you were the 190 bowler, you aren't going to say forget it and not enter?

You say you run a business, isn't what you are asking for sort of like saying, hey can you kick in an extra 10% of your profits because the business next door isn't quite making as much money because they don't get as much business as you because their market is smaller?

What I am afraid you will see if even less entries that the 39% after Vegas. Why, well, the 210-219 bowlers would enter and hope to clean up in brackets against the 181-209s. With those gone, the 210-219 are now the small fish for the 220+ and some of them have already posted, they are not going to bowl or are rethinking it.

And just FYI - the new PBA rule is everyone can bowl, just no more than 1 PBA title holder on a team, or doubles unless you are older than 60.

So the big example that everyone is upset about: Mark McDowell and Mike Shady both earned titles back in the 80s-90s. They have been bowling the tournament together with Jeff Richgels for almost 20 years now. Both are in their 50s now. They can no longer bowl together on the team and dbls due to the new rule until one of them turns 60.

Author Topic: Have at it....USBC Open Changes (Read 18987 times)

Radical In RI

Have at it....USBC Open Changes

Olderdude

Re: Have at it....USBC Open Changes

mrwizerd

Re: Have at it....USBC Open Changes

Olderdude

Re: Have at it....USBC Open Changes

milorafferty

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mrwizerd

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Gene J Kanak

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UCFalum300

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MI 2 AZ

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txbowler

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Tex

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UCFalum300

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cory867

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txbowler

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UCFalum300

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txbowler

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