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Author Topic: changing the ogre pearls coverstock  (Read 2044 times)

hjk246

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changing the ogre pearls coverstock
« on: July 19, 2008, 09:25:47 AM »
i am currently thinking about changing the coverstock on my ogre pearl to 2000 abralon with a light polish.Has anyone done this yet and if you have what type of reaction and luck did you have?Please let me know.

 

MI 2 AZ

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Re: changing the ogre pearls coverstock
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2008, 05:54:51 PM »
The factory finish on that ball is 1500 polished.  If you use 2000 abralon, according to the grit comparison charts, that is about equal to 1100 US grit, which would be less than factory.  

Read the following topic for some reference links.
http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=200118&ForumID=17&CategoryID=5

Edited to add pdf links for those who cant see them in above link:

http://home.earthlink.net/~litefrozen/downloads/bowling_grit_chart.pdf

http://www.mirka-usa.com/downloads/pdf_files/grit_chart.pdf

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Edited on 7/19/2008 5:59 PM
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charlest

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Re: changing the ogre pearls coverstock
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2008, 07:43:59 PM »
quote:
i am currently thinking about changing the coverstock on my ogre pearl to 2000 abralon with a light polish.Has anyone done this yet and if you have what type of reaction and luck did you have?Please let me know.


MI 2 AZ is correct, near as I can tell.
Your overall reaction, given the differences of human interaction, should have slightly earlier and slightly more aggressive backend. I mean "VERY SLIGHTLY", to "SLIGHTLY", depending on how light(?) a dose of which polish you applied.

- If you're looking for more length and less backend, try 4000 grit Abralon + VERY light polish.
- If you're looking for a smoother overall reaction than stock, try 4000 grit Abralon by itself. This should handle the same amount of oil as the stock one.
- If you're looking for an earlier lane read and more overall hook, try 600 grit (green nylon pad or 1000 grit Abralon)) and a light to medium dose of NON-ABRASIVE polish, or a very light dose of an ABRASIVE polish.
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Edited on 7/19/2008 7:56 PM
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

scotts33

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Re: changing the ogre pearls coverstock
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2008, 08:23:23 PM »
It would be interesting to know if Visionary's 1500 polished OOB for their pearl balls are actually 1500 US with polish over the top. Which might make sense as that corresponds to 4000 abralon P standard. The underlying  grit I mean with polish over the top.  

I prefer the P4000 abralon on my OP.  Jeff has this correct I believe  ---->  
- If you're looking for more length and less backend, try 4000 grit Abralon + VERY light polish.
- If you're looking for a smoother overall reaction than stock, try 4000 grit Abralon by itself. This should handle the same amount of oil as the stock one.
- If you're looking for an earlier lane read and more overall hook, try 600 grit (green nylon pad or 1000 grit Abralon)) and a light to medium dose of NON-ABRASIVE polish, or a very light dose of an ABRASIVE polish.
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Scott

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charlest

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Re: changing the ogre pearls coverstock
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2008, 08:44:07 PM »
Scott,

That first "IF" of mine is based mostly on my experience, but also on what you told me of your Ogre Pearl:

I have tried many resin pearls that are supposedly finished "1500 grit polished". Then I took them to 4000 grit Abralon, via 1000 grit Ab, then 2000 Ab and then finally 4000 grit Abralon pad. (You have to take the ball up in order or you don't wind up with a true 4000 grit "P"/Fepa grade finish.

Anyway, I find that for 90-95% (more or less) of these balls, the P4000 grit finish handles just about the same amount of oil, but the ball reaction is slightly earlier and has slightly less backend and slightly more overall hook, handling slightly more carrydown. P4000 grit is basically a controlled version of "1500 grit polish". FYI I believe that "1500" is US or CAMI grade, not FEPA.

The Abralon and FEPA graded particles are somewhat smoother, less sharp edged than the US or CAMI grade. So the finish will seem slightly smoother to the touch but the sanding lines will have the same size.

In the future, US abrasive manufacturers will be going toward the FEPA standard for all abrasives. The FEPA standards are higher than the CAMI standards.
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MI 2 AZ

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Re: changing the ogre pearls coverstock
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2008, 08:50:54 PM »
In the flyer for the Ogre Particle, it states that it will be 1000 Abralon finished.  I always assumed that the older Visionary balls were using US standard grits and I hope that is correct.  

Plus, as Jeff stated, which ball polish and how much is used will be very important in determining ball reaction.  I need to find out what type of polish is used at the factory.  (Jason, are you there?)


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I am the Sgt Schultz of bowling.
"I know nothing! I see nothing! NOTHING!"
_________________________________________

New to BR? - Please check this:  BR FAQ
_________________________________________
Six decades of league bowling and still learning.

ABC/USBC Lifetime Member since Aug 1995.

scotts33

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Re: changing the ogre pearls coverstock
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2008, 08:59:59 PM »
Yes balls like the Solid Glad & Ogre Particle have stated an abralon finish.  The other balls with matte finishes I always figured were via scotch-brite.

1500polished OOB what's under there?  I figure 1500 US grit with polish over. But, then again Jason has stated in the past that Storm Step 2 can replicate some finishes used by Visionary but I forget which ones.  

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charlest

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Re: changing the ogre pearls coverstock
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2008, 09:05:11 PM »
Scott,

I'm figuring, given the differences I've seen in some Vis pearls, that the 1500 grit polished is an estimate, which it should be. Some machines get more consistent results than human can in the ball finishing "race". As one manufcaturer's rep put it to me a long time ago: all stock finishes should be considered to be only a SUGGESTION to the bowler.

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hjk246

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Re: changing the ogre pearls coverstock
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2008, 03:26:14 AM »
I was thinking of either using some beans secret sauce or maybe track's magic shine.the type of reaction i am looking for is more overall hook.i like how smooth the ball is now but i would like it a bit more aggressive especially on the backend.

charlest

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Re: changing the ogre pearls coverstock
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2008, 09:51:25 AM »
quote:
I was thinking of either using some beans secret sauce or maybe track's magic shine.the type of reaction i am looking for is more overall hook.i like how smooth the ball is now but i would like it a bit more aggressive especially on the backend.


When you change it to get more backend, you will lose some of that smoothness- nature of the resin beast. Try option #3.
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Re: changing the ogre pearls coverstock
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2008, 04:21:11 PM »
Hello All,

OK here is how we finish our covers

Wet Sand - 3M wet/dry sandpaper hand sanded on a spinner (most have been 320)

Matte - Scotch Brite Pads hand sanded on a spinner
Burgundy - 400 matte
Green - 600 matte
Light Gray - 1000 matte

Abralon - Abralon pads on a resurfacing machine similar to the Haus.  We used 2,000 abralon on the Gladiator Solid and 1,000 Abralon on the Ogre Particle.

Polish - 1500 buffing compound.  This is a solid (non wax) buffing compound used on polishing wheels.  Our polishing system is would be best described as an industrial sized Lustre King.

Hope this helps,
Jason Wonders
Visionary Bowling Products




Edited on 7/21/2008 4:21 PM

scotts33

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Re: changing the ogre pearls coverstock
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2008, 05:23:27 PM »
quote:
Polish - 1500 buffing compound. This is a solid (non wax) buffing compound used on polishing wheels. Our polishing system is would be best described as an industrial sized Lustre King.


Jason,

Thanks!  What do the 1500 OOB pearls start as underneath?
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Scott

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Re: changing the ogre pearls coverstock
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2008, 01:28:41 PM »
Hey guys,

At the risk of seeming a little controversial, do you think that people are getting a little too concerned about exactly how a ball is finished.  I know that it is important to be able to try and replicate a surface, but there are so many different factors that go into a surface prep that it is rediculous.  Here are some variances that you can notice, and if you disagree or agree, I would like to hear your opinion.

1) sanding the ball or matte finishes -
    a) How new is the pad/sandpaper?  When a scotch brite pad or sandpaper is brand new, it will give you a finish that is more coarse than used sandpaper/pad.
    b) How much pressure are you using?  This can play just as important of a roll as anything when finishing the ball.  If you really lay into the ball, the surface will be alot rougher than if you don't put much pressure on it.
    c) How fast is the spinner?  Believe it or not, the speed at which the ball rotates in the spinner can determine how rough a finish is.
    d) How abrasion resistant is the coverstock?  We have covers that are very abrasion resistant, and they don't take to surface adjustments very well, while other covers are less abrasion resistant and can be resurfaced in a matter of 30 seconds.
    e) What kind of material is the sandpaper/scotch brite/sanding compound made of?  A diamond pad is going to dig a harder than carbide which will dig harder than nylon.
    f) Is the pad/sandpaper getting clogged by the material?  The depth at which the pad/sandpaper is cutting is just as important as the width of the cut.  Usually the two coincide with one another, but if it gets clogged up at all, that changes the depth of the cut.  We have some pretty tough materials that don't clog up the pad at all, while other materials can clog up the paper before you even get a decent finish.
    g) Are you sanding 2 sides? 4 sides? 6 sides?  The sanding patterns can make a slight difference as well.

2)With polishing there are a number of factors as well:
    a) Is it a polish or buffing compound?
    b) Does it contain wax?
    c) Is there anything in the polish that will clog the pores?
    d) How aggressive is the polish?  ie. does it actually smooth out the sanding or is it just polishing the grooves?

I'm not trying to minimize the importance of coverstock preperation, but there are so many factors that can determine a surface, that when manufacturers state the surface finish, it is more of an approximation and suggestion than it is a very specific science.  I can tell you from experience, that you can take two people and give them the same type of ball, and same scotch brite, and you will end up with two slightly different surfaces.

To answer your question scott, we have an automatic sander that we use to remove the engraving filler putty which uses a burgundy scotch brite pad.  It then goes directly into the polishing machine.  That being said, the polishing machine that we use is aggressive and uses a solid buffing compound that removes all sandlines/cuts.  The finish should be pretty much the same if we used a green or gray pad and then polished it, because all of the grooves created by the sandpaper or scotch brite pads are completely removed by the buffing wheels.

Jason Wonders
Visionary Bowling Products

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Re: changing the ogre pearls coverstock
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2008, 01:33:36 PM »
Hey guys,

At the risk of seeming a little controversial, do you think that people are getting a little too concerned about exactly how a ball is finished.  I know that it is important to be able to try and replicate a surface, but there are so many different factors that go into a surface prep that it is ridiculous.  Here are some variances that you can notice, and if you disagree or agree, I would like to hear your opinion.

1) sanding the ball or matte finishes -
    a) How new is the pad/sandpaper?  When a scotch brite pad or sandpaper is brand new, it will give you a finish that is more coarse than used sandpaper/pad.
    b) How much pressure are you using?  This can play just as important of a roll as anything when finishing the ball.  If you really lay into the ball, the surface will be alot rougher than if you don't put much pressure on it.
    c) How fast is the spinner?  Believe it or not, the speed at which the ball rotates in the spinner can determine how rough a finish is.
    d) How abrasion resistant is the coverstock?  We have covers that are very abrasion resistant, and they don't take to surface adjustments very well, while other covers are less abrasion resistant and can be resurfaced in a matter of 30 seconds.
    e) What kind of material is the sandpaper/scotch brite/sanding compound made of?  A diamond pad is going to dig a harder than carbide which will dig harder than nylon.
    f) Is the pad/sandpaper getting clogged by the material?  The depth at which the pad/sandpaper is cutting is just as important as the width of the cut.  Usually the two coincide with one another, but if it gets clogged up at all, that changes the depth of the cut.  We have some pretty tough materials that don't clog up the pad at all, while other materials can clog up the paper before you even get a decent finish.
    g) Are you sanding 2 sides? 4 sides? 6 sides?  The sanding patterns can make a slight difference as well.

2)With polishing there are a number of factors as well:
    a) Is it a polish or buffing compound?
    b) Does it contain wax?
    c) Is there anything in the polish that will clog the pores?
    d) How aggressive is the polish?  ie. does it actually smooth out the sanding or is it just polishing the grooves?

I'm not trying to minimize the importance of coverstock preparation, but there are so many factors that can determine a surface, that when manufacturers state the surface finish, it is more of an approximation and suggestion than it is a very specific science.  I can tell you from experience, that you can take two people and give them the same type of ball, and same scotch brite, and you will end up with two slightly different surfaces.

To answer your question scott, we have an automatic sander that we use to remove the engraving filler putty which uses a burgundy scotch brite pad.  It then goes directly into the polishing machine.  That being said, the polishing machine that we use is aggressive and uses a solid buffing compound that removes all sandlines/cuts.  The finish should be pretty much the same if we used a green or gray pad and then polished it, because all of the grooves created by the sandpaper or scotch brite pads are completely removed by the buffing wheels.

Jason Wonders
Visionary Bowling Products

scotts33

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Re: changing the ogre pearls coverstock
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2008, 01:57:19 PM »
Thanks for the answer Jason.

I'll respond more in length when I have time.  I do believe most net forum users are trying to glean as much info. as possible and compare from user to user.

Most are also way above the curve in general compared to most of the bowling public.  

More later.  




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Scott

Scott