Post by: TWOHAND834 on February 09, 2011, 10:45:11 AM
I am thinking about getting a ball that will give me a little more help than the Crossover and Ogre Solid on carrydown and longer patterns. VBP has some AMB stuff NIB still available. For those that had the Immortal and/or AMB Solid, can you give a good comparison between these balls? Is the cover on the AMBs weaker, stronger, or similar in handling oil as compared to the Crossover and Ogre Solid? For the record, me and the Spartan are not getting along. For the first time this year, the Crossover was having a hard time reading the backend the other night.
Peace doesnt always have to be silent.
Post by: scotts33 on February 09, 2011, 10:11:49 PM
"For the record, me and the Spartan are not getting along. For the first time this year, the Crossover was having a hard time reading the backend the other night."
Both my Spartan and Crossover are gone. I run into a lot of transition and carry down and neither can handle that type of lane condition for me and my technique. To combat that I tried a Gladiator Pearl but it also was iffy so I went to a Motiv QZ-1 Red 2000 abralon and slight polish then a slight scuff with a 4000 abralon pad with a tighter VAL angle so it would transition harder off the backend. I also believe the coverstock on the QZ-1 is stronger than any of the pearl covers that Visionary has. That ball is the ticket. I haven't had any issues since the change. From the inside, I feed it into the dry track gets enough length and transitions hard enough to carry well. I was battling this all year now no issues what so ever. Wish I would have found it earlier made it a struggle for most of the year until a few weeks back.
Scott
Post by: getuaload on February 10, 2011, 08:13:54 AM
2hand , how do you have you Spartan laid out ? Mine seems to do pretty good with carry down. I have a NIB AMB centaur solid i thought about drilling for heavy oil, or extreme carry down.
Also what surface do you have on the Ogre Solid ? I have tried different surfaces on mine, if you need somthing to combat the carry down use the Ogre Soild, with 400 or 600 wet sand. It will recover for you.
TO BE THE MAN, YOU HAVE TO BEAT THE MAN
Post by: scotts33 on February 10, 2011, 08:46:03 AM
Scott
Post by: getuaload on February 10, 2011, 09:09:58 AM
you are correct Scott, if the heads are burnt we do need a pearl cover Unless you can loft the caps or find enough head oil deep we can still use the solid covers. I have a IM Pearl or NB pearl i can use for this condition however depending on how much carrydown you see it may not recover.
I like to use the Ogre Solid sanded @ 600 for extreme carry down, its low flare and my ball speed i can keep it on track.
TO BE THE MAN, YOU HAVE TO BEAT THE MAN
Post by: TWOHAND834 on February 10, 2011, 10:07:41 AM
Thanks guys. The balls are definitely not dying. The league is a first shift, fresh shot league. They have ALOT of volume in the middle of the lane and go down 40 feet with the machine (not sure how much of it is buff). For the first two games, I tried everything. If I played 12 at arrows out to 5, it hooked too much. If I moved in and played 17 out to 5, it wiggled too much. So I tried direct up 10-12 and left some combination of the 2-8-10 or 2-4-8-10 3 or 4 times. My Ogre Solid is at 1000 abralon right now. The issue, is that for me, that surface works the best when they are fresh. 500 abralon was too dull for my rev rate I believe. Once the track FINALLY started to wear down, I finished strong the second game and shot 258 the last game to shoot 670. Granted 670 is a decent set but it was a tale of two halves. First half the night, I start 185 (3 splits, 1 conversion) and then on pace for 180 again through the first five frames of the second game, to throwing 5 of the last 6 and shooting 229 and then only missing twice the last game for 250. I had a 200 average bowler using a OOB Marvel and lit me up for 698 not including the 18 sticks I am spotting him.
I am not usually one to hit the spinner and alter surfaces every night. When I find a surface and reaction I really like out of a particular ball, I leave it there. The layout on my Spartan is a 5 inch to PAP, 45 degrees. Once again, on the fresh, it rolls good but then slightest hint of carry down and it wont move. From a shot to shot basis, I get a more consistent roll from both the Crossover and Ogre.
SO......my thought was to get an Immortal or AMB, something with a much stronger core, with the cover at 1000 where I can still play in a little when the Crossover and Ogre are not enough.
Peace doesnt always have to be silent.
Post by: scotts33 on February 10, 2011, 10:26:05 AM
I have to ask. Being two handed but with lots of skill can you change your roll?
When I need to play straighter being one handed I move right with my feet and up the back. Jason has said in the past that up the backers do not do well with some of the new releases. Count me in on that. I can vary axis rotation moving in. The ball for this match up for me was not anything that Visionary offers.
BTW.....getuaload traded me the QZ-1 Red for a Visionary ball best trade I ever made. 
Scott
Post by: TWOHAND834 on February 10, 2011, 12:08:08 PM
I have tried to go up the back on that ball and when I do, it lacks continuation. It almost hook stops. Anything will hook on dry. It is when the lanes are oiled where you get a true sense of a ball's strength. I think VBP is falling behind a little on the higher end stuff. The Crossover is a higher end piece but that serpentine core is not very strong. Does it flare? Yes. BUT, it is a 2.56 rg which by todays standards is weak for a high end piece, especially giving that the coverstock strength may not be up to other balls on the market such as a Marvel, World Beater, Pure Physics. Other companies have cores where the RGs are higher but they are using "supercovers". My question is.....Can VBP come up with a cover that has good oil handling capabilities where particle isnt used in the cover, and doesnt have to be taken down to 400-500 grit? Unfortunately, USBC has taken the monster cores that VBP was using and saying you cant use them anymore. So, now they are trying to go in a different direction to try and keep up with other companies high end equipment but they just are not quite there. I am thinking that since they are still "legal" in the sense they were grandfathered in, I may try to get one of the mamma jammas left in the discontinued list as my oiler. I had a Frankie May once before and it was an absolute beast. I really liked that React-a-Tack cover. Kind of would like to see it make a comeback. Wonder as to its strength compared to a Gladiator Soild and Ogre Solid.
Peace doesnt always have to be silent.
Post by: scotts33 on February 10, 2011, 12:40:01 PM
If, I were you Steve I'd find an FMG. The Gryphon core and React-A-Tack cover were superior to any of the new stuff for me and match up better to a wider variety of bowlers that is comparing strength to strength.
My Spartan, Pearl Glad and Solid Glad. all spun up with the PSA in the track (left side of thumb by more than 1 1/2"s left of thumb) and X holes either did not change the drilling angle at all or moved it very little. For me this is part of the explanation of why these balls may not work for me. I expected something other than what I got.
BTW....I agree with your premise on core shapes. There is a discussion on core shape here....
http://forum.bowlingchat.net/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2336
Scott
Post by: TWOHAND834 on February 10, 2011, 01:50:15 PM
I think with the newer stuff, is that you have to drill them STRONG!!! Unless you are a big spinner, You have to put the pin at 4 inches and kick everything outside the grip quite a bit to get desired results. In other words, the MB needs to be close to the VAL and a weight hole in the P3 or P4 position in order to have continuation. If and when I decide to get anything else "newer", I am going to keep putting the MB at 45 degrees, which for me, puts the MB very close to my VAL so I can put a weight hole in P3 or P4 to help "make" the ball rev up and motor on the back. With my Crossover, if I dont increase my axis rotation to about 45-60 degrees, the ball wont continue. My typical axis rotation is closer to 30 degrees which with the newer releases and assymetric cores, makes me stuff want to hook/stop. I am considering either a FMG or AMB Solid.
Peace doesnt always have to be silent.
Post by: getuaload on February 11, 2011, 11:16:57 AM
I have a NIB amb solid, i been thinking about drilling and want too sure on the layout for it, however i do know if you drill them too strong they will burn up. So right now i am wondering what to do with it as far as layout goes. i will call Jason and see what he thinks but if i go 4'' pin to pap i think it will just die out on me.
TO BE THE MAN, YOU HAVE TO BEAT THE MAN
Post by: scotts33 on February 11, 2011, 11:39:30 AM
Anybody want this 14 lb'er let me know. 2x strong drill. My PAP is 5" over and 0.
Scott
Post by: getuaload on February 11, 2011, 11:50:45 AM
i am pretty sure it was originally mine, what do you want for it >?
TO BE THE MAN, YOU HAVE TO BEAT THE MAN
Post by: scotts33 on February 11, 2011, 12:03:44 PM
Scott
Post by: getuaload on February 11, 2011, 12:11:09 PM
I think he is the one who got it from me, look to the right of the thumb, i marked the VMB with my bevel knife just a small DOT / punch mark.
Send me you PP addy, i will take it
TO BE THE MAN, YOU HAVE TO BEAT THE MAN
Edited by getuaload on 2/11/2011 at 1:11 PM
Post by: scotts33 on February 11, 2011, 12:22:54 PM
Yep that's the ball. Small mark just left of pin-CG line. Did you spin it?
I PM'ed you my Paypal info.
Scott
Post by: getuaload on February 11, 2011, 12:30:40 PM
No didnt spin it, i just drew a line from AMB threw PIN & CG then marked the VMB
TO BE THE MAN, YOU HAVE TO BEAT THE MAN
Post by: TWOHAND834 on February 12, 2011, 08:39:46 PM
John,
If you do drill that AMB, I would put the pin at 5 inches from your axis just to make sure it doesnt flare too quickly and die. Since you have a 18-19 mph ball speed, you should not havw to worry about that. I was speaking more in terms of the newer balls like the Crossover and Ogres because the RGs are higher and the diffs are lower. I have noticed that if you take a hugher end ball with a "weak" core, if you dont drill them strong, they want to hook/stop.
So in other words, weaker core, drill them strong and stronger cores, drill them weak. Do you seem to notice the same thing????
Peace doesnt always have to be silent.
Post by: getuaload on February 13, 2011, 06:03:23 AM
i understand completely about the AMB cores, however my crossover & spartan have the same layout 4.5 pin to pap , pin high and they never seem to quit. do i think they are as strong as some of the other balls out today. No but they are not that far behind. I would love to see a new stronger cover when the Mix Breed line comes out.
I drilled the AMB centaur after talking to jason and placed the pin 5.5 from pap. not a good choose it didnt do much for me compaired to my crossover & spartan that was covering the whole lane. Not sure what it was dying, Jason too is confused about that. i am plugging and gonna try adifferent layout for the heck of it.
TO BE THE MAN, YOU HAVE TO BEAT THE MAN
Post by: TWOHAND834 on February 14, 2011, 06:45:34 AM
Sounds as though that 1 inch difference in pin placement made the AMB too similar to the Spartan and Crossover. Where do you have the MB placement on the Crossover and Spartan?
Peace doesnt always have to be silent.
Post by: scotts33 on February 14, 2011, 06:49:52 AM
I'll argue unless you can spin them you don't know where the PSA is on these balls. I know, I had spun both Spartan ( you won't believe where that PSA is) and Crossover. Your drilling angles are way off on these balls and you guys don't know it unless you spin them. JMO.
Scott
Post by: getuaload on February 14, 2011, 06:52:11 AM
here is a pic of my crossover, Spartan looks the same.
TO BE THE MAN, YOU HAVE TO BEAT THE MAN
TO BE THE MAN, YOU HAVE TO BEAT THE MAN Edited by getuaload on 2/14/2011 at 9:06 AM
Edited by getuaload on 2/14/2011 at 9:41 AM
Post by: getuaload on February 14, 2011, 07:00:49 AM
here is the AMB, i changed the surface before i do a whole plug and redrill
TO BE THE MAN, YOU HAVE TO BEAT THE MAN
Edited by getuaload on 2/14/2011 at 9:42 AM
Post by: scotts33 on February 14, 2011, 07:01:58 AM
With the CG shifted that far right John you are close to having the PSA on that Spartan near the thumb hole. You would have to shift it that far right to get a reasonable acute drilling angle. That is also why it probably works better for you than most have described. If I ever drilled another one that is exactly what I would do.
BTW....you might want to re-size your pics to under 100kb.
Scott
Edited by scotts33 on 2/14/2011 at 8:03 AM
Post by: ch_flash on February 14, 2011, 07:40:50 AM
That Crossover looks like it would hook good. Mine is drilled almost like yours.
I have a question about the AMB. Is the little pin the lightest cap? And wouldn't that make the VMB 2" right of the thumb hole? Isn't the pin a little too far from your PAP?
My G. Pearl has the pin 1.5" above the bridge, 6" to PAP, with the cg mark about 25* right. 1" above my grip midline. In theory, the MB should be around P3. I didn't spin it on a determinator. It gets down the lane and when it hits some friction, makes a turn, not an arc.
If you didn't like that strike, just watch this one!
Test Staff Memberhttp://visionarybowling.com/
Test Staff Memberhttp://visionarybowling.com/
Edited by ch_flash on 2/14/2011 at 8:50 AM
Post by: scotts33 on February 14, 2011, 07:45:58 AM
The PSA since there is no marked and indetified MB on the Glad Pearl is left of the thumb. I'll bet $ on it. Hence factor in your drilling angle on that not where you think it might be.
Scott
Post by: ch_flash on February 14, 2011, 07:52:43 AM
Scott, It doesn't matter to me. It works!
If you didn't like that strike, just watch this one!
Test Staff Member
Test Staff Member
Post by: scotts33 on February 14, 2011, 07:56:30 AM
Here's why it works. I like facts to back up results. The length you are seeing is the pin distance and placement.. What's your PAP?
How do you layout anything without knowing what the drilling angle is? A shot in the dark? That's my issue with it.
Scott
Post by: TWOHAND834 on February 14, 2011, 12:24:36 PM
The issue I see off the bat with the AMB is the pin placement and where the weight hole is located. How much top weight did that ball have? Reason I ask is because that weight hole looks like it has some size to it. Usually a weight hole up by the fingers helps to delay the backend reaction.
My suggestion if you are plugging it: Put the pin above your fingers but not as high as the Crossover in order to lower the cg closer to your midline. I would put the pin about 1/2 lower than what your Crossover shows, kick the cg/MB out around 65 degrees, which should put the MB about 2+ inches right of your thumb and then a small weight hole in P2 if you can. If need be, drill the fingers a little deeper than normal in order to shift some weight towards the thumb. If you lay the ball out this way, with your ball speed, I believe you can really make this ball rev and pop on the back.
Peace doesnt always have to be silent.