Author Topic: Immortal Solid question... (Read 5901 times)

Nor Cal Bowler · « **on:** November 30, 2008, 02:08:02 PM »

Has anyone had any success with this ball on synthetics? No matter what i set the coverstock to this ball just wants to slide all the way down the lane.

Its very confusing on why it does that....
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Nor Cal Bowler · « **Reply #61 on:** December 04, 2008, 09:17:36 AM »

quote:
Stephen,
Here is the lay out of the ball and the cover is Grey pad no polish and the front part of the lane is synthetic and the rest wood.

http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii260/BLTBYJ/?action=viewÂ¤t=DSC02409.jpg

And J_w73,
That is my ball.

Edited on 12/4/2008 10:11 AM

Ah and memories of the ranchero

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I_Bowl4Money · « **Reply #62 on:** December 04, 2008, 09:35:26 AM »

bltbyj,

Watching the video, the ball has basically flared over most of the ball surface by the time it gets to the breakpoint. That being the case, the ball only has a ring or two of flare left to even hook on.

I had a bowler with this same problem who is speed dominant and his MoRich LevRG was drilled at leverage. He would throw it and the ball would burn up instantly and go straight.

He was able to fit into my equipment so I let him try a Frankie May that was had the pin under the middle finger and the cg just right of the center of grip (it was a short pin->cg probably 1 1/2 inches, but the pin->pap for me was 5 3/4 inches). He threw that and the ball and because of the layout it didn't start to flare until 5-10feet later than his MoRich.

On Edit: basically that means the ball stayed on his PAP longer thus allowing the ball to delay its flare until further down the lane which allowed for the ball to recover more because it could use the flare to keep fresh surface in contact with the lane. In turn, helping the ball to slow down and read the condition much better. Does that make sense?

It is the only ball he throws now and he's able to play sometimes as deep as 15 with it where as his MoRich ball he had to throw straight up 5.

Redrill option -> If you're able to put that pin 5 inches away from your PAP near the middle finger or bridge and get the CG toward the palm or slightly right of the center of grip, surface should be started at 1000, I feel pretty confident the reaction you get would be totally different.
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Edited on 12/4/2008 10:45 AM

Nor Cal Bowler · « **Reply #63 on:** December 04, 2008, 09:50:47 AM »

Erin,

Are you talking about crestview or fireside??

I saw the ball on the rack at your shop. Is that the price of the ball or is that the price drilled?
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J_w73 · « **Reply #64 on:** December 04, 2008, 09:57:05 AM »

quote:
bltbyj,

Watching the video, the ball has basically flared over most of the ball surface by the time it gets to the breakpoint. That being the case, the ball only has a ring or two of flare left to even hook on.

I had a bowler with this same problem who is speed dominant and his MoRich LevRG was drilled at leverage. He would throw it and the ball would burn up instantly and go straight.

He was able to fit into my equipment so I let him try a Frankie May that was had the pin under the middle finger and the cg just right of the center of grip (it was a short pin->cg probably 1 1/2 inches, but the pin->pap for me was 5 3/4 inches). He threw that and the ball and because of the layout it didn't start to flare until 5-10feet later than his MoRich.

On Edit: basically that means the ball stayed on his PAP longer thus allowing the ball to delay its flare until further down the lane which allowed for the ball to recover more because it could use the flare to keep fresh surface in contact with the lane. In turn, helping the ball to slow down and read the condition much better. Does that make sense?

It is the only ball he throws now and he's able to play sometimes as deep as 15 with it where as his MoRich ball he had to throw straight up 5.

Redrill option -> If you're able to put that pin 5 inches away from your PAP near the middle finger or bridge and get the CG toward the palm or slightly right of the center of grip, surface should be started at 1000, I feel pretty confident the reaction you get would be totally different.
--------------------
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Edited on 12/4/2008 10:45 AM

so you are pretty much saying the ball is flaring to early and doesn't have any more flare by the time it gets to the break (dry)?

so isn't that a factor of ball surface?? just asking it might be a no

or is it .. that at leverage the ball just flares even with zero friction.

I think i am probably seeing the same thing with my ball.. there is 0 skid.. just flaring right away..

Will a ball flare with absolutely no friction and just from gravity or the forces of the spinning ball ?? Isn't this what the determinator does

I_Bowl4Money · « **Reply #65 on:** December 04, 2008, 10:17:55 AM »

Changing the balls surface can only go so far. In this case the ball is unable to slow itself down enough for it to read the condition.

What i see is the ball flaring off the bowlers PAP and immediately trying to get to it's Preferred Spin Axis (PSA). By the time it does that, the ball has no surface left to use to get it to hook.

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Nor Cal Bowler · « **Reply #66 on:** December 04, 2008, 11:22:13 AM »

Jay has the video of my ball, so hopefully he posts it soon...
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J_w73 · « **Reply #67 on:** December 04, 2008, 11:24:57 AM »

quote:
Changing the balls surface can only go so far. In this case the ball is unable to slow itself down enough for it to read the condition.

What i see is the ball flaring off the bowlers PAP and immediately trying to get to it's Preferred Spin Axis (PSA). By the time it does that, the ball has no surface left to use to get it to hook.

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I am pretty sure that is exactly what my AMB particle and my Immortal was doing .. flaring instantly... so there isn't enough head oil then.. ?
Or will a ball with this layout, high of differential and strong mass bias flare no matter what condition..
I think that is what I was seeing with my AMB particle..bowled with it on 50 ft US open flood pattern and I'm pretty sure the ball was still flaring right away.. maybe the volume was still too low... not sure..

didn't realize how important the skid portion of the ball path was..
I just thought the ball was high flaring and you wanted it to be flaring and that meant more hook..

Nor Cal Bowler · « **Reply #68 on:** December 04, 2008, 11:49:21 AM »

Stephen,

Basically you are saying is that if the lanes were 20 feet longer then the balls would react better? How they are presently drilled are they over powering or underpowering? My guess is over...
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dpetty · « **Reply #69 on:** December 04, 2008, 12:20:30 PM »

Steve has hit the nail on the head with this one. By increasing your PIN to PAP distance it will decrease the axis rotation (how fast or slow the ball reaches it's Preferred Spin Axis - PSA), one of a few elements of ball reaction, thus helping it transition slower or later, at a place on the lane where the ball can/will encounter friction. Make Sense?

This verbiage from Mo Pinel may also help:

"The flare potential of an undrilled ball is dominated by the total differential of the designed ball. If the core is so dominant, does the coverstock have any impact on the flare potential? Well yes, but only a small effect and it's based upon the friction it encounters as it travels down the lane. Oil and lane types do play a part in how much friction can be encountered. So beware that one drilling may match well to one house/center and not well in another! This latter is especially important if you're drilling a ball for another facility. Hence, the pin to PAP distance is used to control the amount of flare of the drilled ball and determines what percentage of the ball's flare potential the drilled ball will have."

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Edited on 12/4/2008 1:22 PM

I_Bowl4Money · « **Reply #70 on:** December 04, 2008, 12:35:32 PM »

Nor Cal,

What I'm trying to say, is based on the video, the ball is spent before it even gets to the actual breakpoint. Because the bowler has a high rev rate and a high ball speed, two things happen:

1) The bowler's high rev rate is causing the ball surface and core to immediately start working, therefore, the entire ball's energy is being spent the first 30 ft.

2) The bowler's high ball speed is causing the ball to have little time to use what energy, if any is left, to react at the breakpoint.

My honest opinion is that the ball dynamics do not match up well with your style. The only way I see this ball potentially working is something with a long pin->cg (4-5 inches) or a short pin->cg (0-1 inches), pin->pap 5 1/2 - 6 inches. My first suggestion is the longer pin->cg drill.

My rev rate and ball speed are not that high but I've seen my Imm Solid, even with the long drill pattern do the same thing if the conditions are not right (on the drier side of medium). Even if I take it to 4000 and shine it up, it takes at least 42+ oil patterns for my ball to work well.

The reason it's not moving on 50 foot patterns is because of ball speed.

Best of luck gang. I'm not sure there's much more I can offer, but I hope that this information will be taken into consideration and feel free to get in touch with me or Jason anytime your in question about the equipment.
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J_w73 · « **Reply #71 on:** December 04, 2008, 01:03:41 PM »

that video isn't nor-cals ball.. I don't think

I would like to see Nor-Cal's ball since that is the one that doesn't work..

Edited on 12/4/2008 2:06 PM

J_w73 · « **Reply #72 on:** December 04, 2008, 01:13:05 PM »

quote:
Steve has hit the nail on the head with this one. By increasing your PIN to PAP distance it will decrease the axis rotation (how fast or slow the ball reaches it's Preferred Spin Axis - PSA), one of a few elements of ball reaction, thus helping it transition slower or later, at a place on the lane where the ball can/will encounter friction. Make Sense?

Edited on 12/4/2008 1:22 PM

so what you are saying is that at 3 3/8 leverage the ball will try to seek its PSA the fastest ?? or will seek it's PSA the fastest when it begins to flare?
Not sure if these are the same thing

dpetty · « **Reply #73 on:** December 04, 2008, 02:13:43 PM »

J_W73, Every ball (when thrown) is trying to reach it's Preferred Spin Axis, and the stronger a pin placement is, the more it enhances how fast the ball can reach that PSA.

Closely read this excerpt from Mo Pinel and I think you will answer your own question:

""The flare potential of an undrilled ball is dominated by the total differential of the designed ball. If the core is so dominant, does the coverstock have any impact on the flare potential? Well yes, but only a small effect and it's based upon the friction it encounters as it travels down the lane. Hence, the pin to PAP distance is used to control the amount of flare of the drilled ball and determines what percentage of the ball's flare potential the drilled ball will have."
--------------------
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bltbyj · « **Reply #74 on:** December 04, 2008, 02:15:21 PM »

Stephen,
Thanks for all your help but I just guessed on the PAP I think
it's close and I also want to know if you see the same thing when
I shoot some video at my home house I'll also get the PAP in the right place.
I knew the house I shot the video was on the dry side.

J_w73 · « **Reply #75 on:** December 04, 2008, 02:36:07 PM »

quote:
J_W73, Every ball (when thrown) is trying to reach it's Preferred Spin Axis, and the stronger a pin placement is, the more it enhances how fast the ball can reach that PSA.

Closely read this excerpt from Mo Pinel and I think you will answer your own question:

""The flare potential of an undrilled ball is dominated by the total differential of the designed ball. If the core is so dominant, does the coverstock have any impact on the flare potential? Well yes, but only a small effect and it's based upon the friction it encounters as it travels down the lane. Hence, the pin to PAP distance is used to control the amount of flare of the drilled ball and determines what percentage of the ball's flare potential the drilled ball will have."
--------------------
Derek Petty

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I don't quite understand all of it..
I think it is saying that a ball has a diff that causes a max flare.. different pin positions determine how much of the flare potential is used.

does a ball flare in the absense of friction?

Also, When the ball is at leverage it is farther away from the perferred axis... so wouldn't it take longer to get there..?
Will a ball with the pin on the axis still migrate to the MB or PSA... or a different spot.

Edited on 12/4/2008 3:55 PM

Author Topic: Immortal Solid question... (Read 5901 times)

Nor Cal Bowler

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