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Author Topic: PBA  (Read 4937 times)

roaddogg

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PBA
« on: August 09, 2008, 12:29:09 AM »
I know we talked about it over and over again. But i think that Visionary makes plenty of money to be registered with the PBA. I know i would not mind paying a little more for there product if they were to be with the PBA. Is there any new thoughts or comments about that. Also is it going to change down the line

 

Mvpbowler

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Re: PBA
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2008, 05:51:11 PM »
roaddogg,

Just out of curiosity why is it you THINK Visionary makes plenty of money that we can be registered with the PBA. Do not take this the wrong way please. But you don't get to see the numbers that at the end of the month. Now is that to say that Visionary doesn't make a profit, not at all. BUT.. it is a pretty hefty amount to pay to be product registered. I would love to see it happen as then I could go bowl regionals and other pba events. But realize that if we product registered on the tour we have some other factors here~

Other factors into product registering.

Signing a player or two to throw our equipment
Paying those players a salary each month
We would need a ball rep as well
Paying that ball reps salary each month plus expenses
Supplying product out on the pba tour truck


So realize that it is a fairly large amount of money to put out to only HOPE you gain some exposure and sales back in the end. I cannot put a real price tag on it but it is a couple 100K. Then also take all that money and divide it by your ball sales.

Example.. Visionary puts out 300K into the PBA in a year. Visionary profits say 50 a ball sold.. That's only about an additional 6000 balls a year we need to sell to recoup that and break even. Do you see that being possible roaddogg?
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icewall

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Re: PBA
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2008, 05:53:01 PM »
I could care less what visionary does on tv or not.

but having the fear of buying equipment because it isnt even grassroots sucks. the regional tour is big to many people.

and yes I agree the price to have their equipment on the pba tour is crazy. why would any small company in their right mind pay that and pray to increase sales? its a real gamble that usually will not pay off.
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dw23

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Re: PBA
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2008, 06:18:54 PM »
Visionary would have to get a more dynamic bowler to use there equipment. No offense but Haugen is not going to move equipment for anyone unless he throws multiple 300's on TV or wins 4 or 5 tournament in a season. His style is not exciting enough. Scroggins success didn't move the Cell either. The Cell was used by so many non-staffers (I think 3 on the same TV show) that you had to take notice.

I agree that it is probably not worth it but it would be nice to see.
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roaddogg

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Re: PBA
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2008, 01:50:54 PM »
I do agree with dpunky i think all the balls that can be used in usbc tourn.should be able to use on the PBA tour. The PBA is all into the sports league and the PBA exp. league they really need to think about changing the rules on reg. there equipment. Maybe if there is enough people out there writting in about this issue they will have to change it.

rackattack

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Re: PBA
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2008, 02:44:23 PM »
quote:
Example.. Visionary puts out 300K into the PBA in a year. Visionary profits say 50 a ball sold.. That's only about an additional 6000 balls a year we need to sell to recoup that and break even. Do you see that being possible roaddogg?

Has Visionary paid for PBA exposure in the past and found it not to be beneficial ,or is an obvious financial bust as you state?
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Re: PBA
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2008, 03:48:22 PM »
Hello All,

Guess it's time to chime in again...LOL

The PBA registration is and always has been a pretty hot topic with our company.  There are many factors that go into our decision, and while I can't go into all of them with you, I will give a basic outline.

1)  Registration fees- PBA registration fees are nearing $130,000.  This registration simply allows PBA bowlers to use our equipment, and does not mean that any of the exempt players would use it, nor does it mean that the equipment would get any exposure on TV.

2)  Staff Members - In order to get any benefit out of being registered, you really have to put atleast 1-2 players on staff.  This would include a base salary and expenses.  Also, there would have to be incentives for the bowler when they make the shows and/or win a telecast.  For a season, the minimum you could assume would be around $60-70,000.

3)  Ball Rep - Every player on tour wants to have a ball rep with him.  They are in charge of making sure the bowler has the correct ball with the right layouts, surface etc.  This includes a salary and expenses, which again usually amounts to about $50-60,000

4)  Incentives - Each time a bowler uses your equipment on a telecast, they receive an incentive from the ball manufacturer.  This could range anywhere from $3-10,000 for each time it makes a show.  Obviously, if you are involved with the PBA, you want it to make the show as often as possible, but having it on TV comes at a price.

5)  Balls have to be supplied for the tour truck.  This usually amounts to atleast $7-10,000 a year.

By the time you are done being involved with the PBA, our out of pocket costs come close to $300,000.  Now, that being said, you have to sell a ton of balls to make up that amount of money.  Now, I'm not going to go into actual sales figures, but to keep things very simple let's assume the following:

Assumption 1)  Profit margin without advertising expenses is 25% (assuming that we don't do any additional advertising with the PBA)

Assumption 2)  Avg wholesale price on a ball is $90 (this would include mid-priced and high performance sales to both pro shops and distributors)  

From this, the average profit per ball would be $22.50.  Now, you divide the expense by the profit and you find that you have to sell and additional 13,333 balls just to break even.

Unfortunately, the PBA is not the marketing tool that it used to be.  At one point, anytime a ball showed up on a telecast, bowlers called and ordered it the following Monday.  That is simply not the case anymore.  This is most likely a combination of the fact that viewership is not what it used to be, there aren't nearly as many sanctioned bowlers anymore, and there are a lot more balls to choose from now.

When we were registered, our bowlers made a number of telecasts, and won several PBA and PWBA tournaments, and not once did it create a significant increase in sales the following week.  Sure, there was a small blip in sales, but a 10% increase in sales over a 2-3 week period is not a significant amount, and is not even close to the amount necessary to break even.

I would love to be registered with the PBA, so that everyone who wanted to could use our equipment, but we would be doing the business a serious injustice if we market using a method that we know is going to cost a lot more than we are going to get back in return.

The grassroots method is another way that we have considered involving ourselves with the PBA.  However, this program is not cheap either, and you create no national exposure through this program at all.  It would benefit pro shops who have PBA members as owners or employees, but from the research studies we have done, there aren't enough of these pro shops to warrant spending this type of money either.

Instead of registering with the PBA, we have done our best to promote our equipment as well as sponsor tournaments and bowlers on the amateur level.  In addition, we have kept our pricing lower than our competition to try and save our consumer some money (on both our mid-priced balls and our high performance equipment).  We understand that bowling is not like golf, and not many bowlers want to spend $300 on a bowling ball.  I know there are some pro shops who do not pass this savings on to the consumer, but unfortunately that is out of our control.

hartungrj - You are partially right.  During national and regional PBA tournaments, our equipment cannot be used period.  However, tournaments like the US Open are actually governed by the USBC up until the TV finals, so bowlers can use our equipment during the tournament, just not on the PBA governed telecast.

I hope this helps explain our position a little bit, and I would be more than happy to answer general questions.  Please don't ask for specific details on costs, total production, sales etc, because those are confidential and I cannot give out specifics.

Fire away,
Jason Wonders
Visionary Bowling Products

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Re: PBA
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2008, 03:49:17 PM »
Hello All,

Guess it's time to chime in again...LOL

The PBA registration is and always has been a pretty hot topic with our company.  There are many factors that go into our decision, and while I can't go into all of them with you, I will give a basic outline.

1)  Registration fees- PBA registration fees are nearing $130,000.  This registration simply allows PBA bowlers to use our equipment, and does not mean that any of the exempt players would use it, nor does it mean that the equipment would get any exposure on TV.

2)  Staff Members - In order to get any benefit out of being registered, you really have to put atleast 1-2 players on staff.  This would include a base salary and expenses.  Also, there would have to be incentives for the bowler when they make the shows and/or win a telecast.  For a season, the minimum you could assume would be around $60-70,000.

3)  Ball Rep - Every player on tour wants to have a ball rep with him.  They are in charge of making sure the bowler has the correct ball with the right layouts, surface etc.  This includes a salary and expenses, which again usually amounts to about $50-60,000

4)  Incentives - Each time a bowler uses your equipment on a telecast, they receive an incentive from the ball manufacturer.  This could range anywhere from $3-10,000 for each time it makes a show.  Obviously, if you are involved with the PBA, you want it to make the show as often as possible, but having it on TV comes at a price.

5)  Balls have to be supplied for the tour truck.  This usually amounts to atleast $7-10,000 a year.

By the time you are done being involved with the PBA, our out of pocket costs come close to $300,000.  Now, that being said, you have to sell a ton of balls to make up that amount of money.  Now, I'm not going to go into actual sales figures, but to keep things very simple let's assume the following:

Assumption 1)  Profit margin without advertising expenses is 25% (assuming that we don't do any additional advertising with the PBA)

Assumption 2)  Avg wholesale price on a ball is $90 (this would include mid-priced and high performance sales to both pro shops and distributors)  

From this, the average profit per ball would be $22.50 (without advertising, marketing, commissions for salesman, shipping etc.).  Now, you divide the expense by the profit and you find that you have to sell and additional 13,333 balls just to break even.

Unfortunately, the PBA is not the marketing tool that it used to be.  At one point, anytime a ball showed up on a telecast, bowlers called and ordered it the following Monday.  That is simply not the case anymore.  This is most likely a combination of the fact that viewership is not what it used to be, there aren't nearly as many sanctioned bowlers anymore, and there are a lot more balls to choose from now.

When we were registered, our bowlers made a number of telecasts, and won several PBA and PWBA tournaments, and not once did it create a significant increase in sales the following week.  Sure, there was a small blip in sales, but a 10% increase in sales over a 2-3 week period is not a significant amount, and is not even close to the amount necessary to break even.

I would love to be registered with the PBA, so that everyone who wanted to could use our equipment, but we would be doing the business a serious injustice if we market using a method that we know is going to cost a lot more than we are going to get back in return.

The grassroots method is another way that we have considered involving ourselves with the PBA.  However, this program is not cheap either, and you create no national exposure through this program at all.  It would benefit pro shops who have PBA members as owners or employees, but from the research studies we have done, there aren't enough of these pro shops to warrant spending this type of money either.

Instead of registering with the PBA, we have done our best to promote our equipment as well as sponsor tournaments and bowlers on the amateur level.  In addition, we have kept our pricing lower than our competition to try and save our consumer some money (on both our mid-priced balls and our high performance equipment).  We understand that bowling is not like golf, and not many bowlers want to spend $300 on a bowling ball.  I know there are some pro shops who do not pass this savings on to the consumer, but unfortunately that is out of our control.

hartungrj - You are partially right.  During national and regional PBA tournaments, our equipment cannot be used period.  However, tournaments like the US Open are actually governed by the USBC up until the TV finals, so bowlers can use our equipment during the tournament, just not on the PBA governed telecast.

I hope this helps explain our position a little bit, and I would be more than happy to answer general questions.  Please don't ask for specific details on costs, total production, sales etc, because those are confidential and I cannot give out specifics.

Fire away,
Jason Wonders
Visionary Bowling Products

Edited on 8/13/2008 3:52 PM

getuaload

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Re: PBA
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2008, 04:10:03 PM »
WOW that really sheds light on the subject.
Thanks Jason
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icewall

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Re: PBA
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2008, 04:12:52 PM »
this is why I like visionary. sure I just started throwing their equipment but its obvious jason cares about the people who stand behind them.

I dont blame you for not being pba registered. maybe one day they will change things and bowling will be more popular on tv but until then I dont see any small company paying.

I just want to say thanks jason. at least you let us know why you stand where you do on the pba matter.
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all visionary this year

blurple
ogre ss
glad.
glad. pearl

Moose Nugget

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Re: PBA
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2008, 06:14:14 PM »
Jason,

Thanks for providing an explanation about your business descision concerning PBA.  

I understand why you aren't going in that direction but it still doesn't change the fact that I am selfish and wish VBP were PBA registered!

rackattack

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Re: PBA
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2008, 07:07:18 PM »
Makes sense to me.
I thought I'd seen Visionary on old telcasts but wasn't sure.
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drillbit

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Re: PBA
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2008, 10:29:16 PM »
One question, Jason. If, during the US Open, or the Masters, an amateur(not a PBA member) bowling with Visionary's(or some other non-PBA registered company's) equipment were to qualify for the televised finals, would he(or she) be allowed to use the equipment they used all week on the telecast, or would they be forced to switch to another(registered) company's equipment for the show? Seeing as these 2 tournaments are not wholly PBA events, I would think they could use anything they wanted(USBC approved, of course).

Just curious.

drillbit

scotts33

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Re: PBA
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2008, 10:51:17 PM »
Nuff said.....this has been hashed and re-hashed over the last few years.

There is no $$$ in the PBA.
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gsback

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Re: PBA
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2008, 09:57:06 AM »
As always, Jason is Da Man!!

I remembered some of what we talked about Jason, but couldn't recall it all.  But as many have chimed in, it just goes to show that VBP cares as this topic could easily be brushed aside and left alone.....but you took the time to respond because people care....and you do.

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Re: PBA
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2008, 11:30:52 AM »
Hi drillbit,

Unfortunately, if you are bowling in these tournaments, and you qualify for the televised finals, you have to switch balls if you continue.

This is an issue that we have been discussing with the USBC for several years now.  It does not seem right, that a bowler can be bowling in an event where the governing body is the USBC, yet have to switch balls for the finals.  The claim is that the USBC portion of both the US Open and Masters is the body of the tournament, and the finals are treated as a separate tournament governed by the PBA.

Jason