Post by: roaddogg on August 09, 2008, 12:29:09 AM
Post by: shelley on August 09, 2008, 01:53:26 PM
SH
Post by: Rileybowler on August 09, 2008, 02:00:03 PM
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Carl
Post by: roaddogg on August 10, 2008, 01:42:21 PM
Post by: BigWillyStyle on August 10, 2008, 08:20:32 PM
quote:
I know that they make a great ball. That is not in question at all. I think they would make more if they were with the PBA. Look at what happened to Morich they have taken off since the Master a few years back
I would say this has more to do with WALTER RAY JR. being on their staff than just being on tour. Visionary was on tour before, but unless you got a big name guy, it won't make enough telecasts to matter to the average joe! I can pretty much say that since they don't do a "what's in the bag" segment, unless you already know the equipment you won't know the difference.
Do you really think that an average joe watching the pba telecast could tell the difference between, say, a Visionary Gladiator Solid and an Ebonite One?
Big Willy Style
PS...I would LOVE to see them on TV, but just isn't worth it to them right now....
--------------------
Just my $0.02 so take it for what the Foreign Exchange values it at!
"I was raised by a cup of coffee..."
***This message brought to you by the A.O.B.U.B.O.A. (Assembly Of Back-Up Bowlers Of America) which is now taking applications***
Honorary Member of the F.O.S. (and also the best back-up bowler the Saws have ever had)!
Visionary Test Staff Member '08-'09
Post by: 3835 on August 10, 2008, 10:30:55 PM
3835
Post by: BrianCRX90 on August 10, 2008, 10:46:17 PM
Also curious, how much does it cost for registration fees cost for Visionary to register with the PBA?
Post by: 3835 on August 10, 2008, 11:02:34 PM
http://www.pba.com/resources/equipmentSponsors.asp?Type=1
As for the registration fees, I believe last time I was talking to a ball company rep, full registrations for one company was over $100,000...JUST TO register....then you have to pay someone to use your stuff and have a tech advisor out there as well...YIKES!!!
3835
Post by: roaddogg on August 12, 2008, 11:22:14 AM
Post by: gsback on August 12, 2008, 11:38:44 AM
Now....would that be the fact that he lost? I don't think so. Anyone throwing a 279 in a losing battle is going to be noticed.
So, I see why he has his doubts on anything to be gained by going the PBA route.
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BR.com.....going down the toilet one nugget at a time!!
g thing is back....with a vengeance!!
Post by: Joe Jr on August 12, 2008, 11:49:54 AM
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My Vid (http://"http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/RevLefty/Vids/?action=view¤t=ArchRival1.flv")
Formerly Brunswick Lefty & Richard Cranium
Edited on 7/9/1997 12:43 PM
Post by: dpunky on August 12, 2008, 12:11:44 PM
The PBA needs to improve their value as a sports brand before resorting to charging outrageous licensing fees. Visionary is fine without the PBA at this point.
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Ken - aka "dpunky" - Certified USBC Level I Coach
Post by: BigWillyStyle on August 12, 2008, 12:23:30 PM
quote:
I don't think not being the national tour is hurting Visionary. But I have no doubt people not being able to throw them on the regional tour is hurting there sales.
TRUE TRUE TRUE!
A few guys that I bowl in a scratch league with would LOVE to try some Visionary (one of them got a Greenie from me awhile ago and loved it in league)...but neither want to shell out the money. The worst thing in the world for them, would be to get a ball that rolls better than anything else they have, and not be able to use it!
Big Willy Style
--------------------
Just my $0.02 so take it for what the Foreign Exchange values it at!
"I was raised by a cup of coffee..."
***This message brought to you by the A.O.B.U.B.O.A. (Assembly Of Back-Up Bowlers Of America) which is now taking applications***
Honorary Member of the F.O.S. (and also the best back-up bowler the Saws have ever had)!
Visionary Test Staff Member '08-'09
Post by: Moose Nugget on August 12, 2008, 05:18:26 PM
That said, If you don't believe that people buy balls on Monday based on what they see the pro's using on tv you are wrong. Look at what the Cell has done for Roto Grip this past season. How many Twisted Fury's have you seen since they have been featured by most every staffer on tour. If a company produces a ball that is featured in the hands of a pro on multiple shows you will see an increase in sales because the pro's (staffer or free agent) will use what helps them make more money on tour.
Everyday bowlers will see and buy what the pro's throw, period. Now if your product is not being used on tour then it would definitely not be worth the price being asked by the PBA.
I would love to see VBP sign on at grassroots level so I could use the Gladiator's and Ogre Pearl in Regional competition. I realize however that since I already have those balls there is no incentive for VBP to spend the $$ for PBA competition.
Post by: Rileybowler on August 12, 2008, 05:32:29 PM
Quote
I respect Jason and VBP's descision to create a business model that works for them.
That said, If you don't believe that people buy balls on Monday based on what they see the pro's using on tv you are wrong. Look at what the Cell has done for Roto Grip this past season. How many Twisted Fury's have you seen since they have been featured by most every staffer on tour. If a company produces a ball that is featured in the hands of a pro on multiple shows you will see an increase in sales because the pro's (staffer or free agent) will use what helps them make more money on tour.
Everyday bowlers will see and buy what the pro's throw, period. Now if your product is not being used on tour then it would definitely not be worth the price being asked by the PBA.
I would love to see VBP sign on at grassroots level so I could use the Gladiator's and Ogre Pearl in Regional competition. I realize however that since I already have those balls there is no incentive for VBP to spend the $$ for PBA competition.[/quote
_____________________________________________________________________________________
One thing about the Cell was that it was a very unique ball in that the way the weight block was made and I don't know all the technical stuff on it but it had never been produced before and it gave a look no other ball had before so of course everybody wanted one. Also Scroggins never had much success until the Cell and wow he made it look so easy.Also a title had been won before on the tour on tv by Haugen using 2 different Visionary balls, so I'm sure Visionary knows if the balls sold a lot more after and with the registration fee which is extremly high had a gauge as to if it was worth it or not. Just my 2 cents.
--------------------
Carl
Post by: Mvpbowler on August 12, 2008, 05:51:11 PM
Just out of curiosity why is it you THINK Visionary makes plenty of money that we can be registered with the PBA. Do not take this the wrong way please. But you don't get to see the numbers that at the end of the month. Now is that to say that Visionary doesn't make a profit, not at all. BUT.. it is a pretty hefty amount to pay to be product registered. I would love to see it happen as then I could go bowl regionals and other pba events. But realize that if we product registered on the tour we have some other factors here~
Other factors into product registering.
Signing a player or two to throw our equipment
Paying those players a salary each month
We would need a ball rep as well
Paying that ball reps salary each month plus expenses
Supplying product out on the pba tour truck
So realize that it is a fairly large amount of money to put out to only HOPE you gain some exposure and sales back in the end. I cannot put a real price tag on it but it is a couple 100K. Then also take all that money and divide it by your ball sales.
Example.. Visionary puts out 300K into the PBA in a year. Visionary profits say 50 a ball sold.. That's only about an additional 6000 balls a year we need to sell to recoup that and break even. Do you see that being possible roaddogg?
--------------------
George Palumbo
Visionary Bowling Products West Coast Sales Rep
VBPwest@yahoo.com
http://www.freewebs.com/vbpwest
http://www.visionarybowling.com
Post by: icewall on August 12, 2008, 05:53:01 PM
but having the fear of buying equipment because it isnt even grassroots sucks. the regional tour is big to many people.
and yes I agree the price to have their equipment on the pba tour is crazy. why would any small company in their right mind pay that and pray to increase sales? its a real gamble that usually will not pay off.
--------------------
Visionary Test Staff 08/09
all visionary this year
blurple
ogre ss
glad.
glad. pearl
Post by: dw23 on August 12, 2008, 06:18:54 PM
I agree that it is probably not worth it but it would be nice to see.
Post by: roaddogg on August 13, 2008, 01:50:54 PM
Post by: rackattack on August 13, 2008, 02:44:23 PM
quote:
Example.. Visionary puts out 300K into the PBA in a year. Visionary profits say 50 a ball sold.. That's only about an additional 6000 balls a year we need to sell to recoup that and break even. Do you see that being possible roaddogg?
Has Visionary paid for PBA exposure in the past and found it not to be beneficial ,or is an obvious financial bust as you state?
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It's all about the X
Post by: on August 13, 2008, 03:48:22 PM
Guess it's time to chime in again...LOL
The PBA registration is and always has been a pretty hot topic with our company. There are many factors that go into our decision, and while I can't go into all of them with you, I will give a basic outline.
1) Registration fees- PBA registration fees are nearing $130,000. This registration simply allows PBA bowlers to use our equipment, and does not mean that any of the exempt players would use it, nor does it mean that the equipment would get any exposure on TV.
2) Staff Members - In order to get any benefit out of being registered, you really have to put atleast 1-2 players on staff. This would include a base salary and expenses. Also, there would have to be incentives for the bowler when they make the shows and/or win a telecast. For a season, the minimum you could assume would be around $60-70,000.
3) Ball Rep - Every player on tour wants to have a ball rep with him. They are in charge of making sure the bowler has the correct ball with the right layouts, surface etc. This includes a salary and expenses, which again usually amounts to about $50-60,000
4) Incentives - Each time a bowler uses your equipment on a telecast, they receive an incentive from the ball manufacturer. This could range anywhere from $3-10,000 for each time it makes a show. Obviously, if you are involved with the PBA, you want it to make the show as often as possible, but having it on TV comes at a price.
5) Balls have to be supplied for the tour truck. This usually amounts to atleast $7-10,000 a year.
By the time you are done being involved with the PBA, our out of pocket costs come close to $300,000. Now, that being said, you have to sell a ton of balls to make up that amount of money. Now, I'm not going to go into actual sales figures, but to keep things very simple let's assume the following:
Assumption 1) Profit margin without advertising expenses is 25% (assuming that we don't do any additional advertising with the PBA)
Assumption 2) Avg wholesale price on a ball is $90 (this would include mid-priced and high performance sales to both pro shops and distributors)
From this, the average profit per ball would be $22.50. Now, you divide the expense by the profit and you find that you have to sell and additional 13,333 balls just to break even.
Unfortunately, the PBA is not the marketing tool that it used to be. At one point, anytime a ball showed up on a telecast, bowlers called and ordered it the following Monday. That is simply not the case anymore. This is most likely a combination of the fact that viewership is not what it used to be, there aren't nearly as many sanctioned bowlers anymore, and there are a lot more balls to choose from now.
When we were registered, our bowlers made a number of telecasts, and won several PBA and PWBA tournaments, and not once did it create a significant increase in sales the following week. Sure, there was a small blip in sales, but a 10% increase in sales over a 2-3 week period is not a significant amount, and is not even close to the amount necessary to break even.
I would love to be registered with the PBA, so that everyone who wanted to could use our equipment, but we would be doing the business a serious injustice if we market using a method that we know is going to cost a lot more than we are going to get back in return.
The grassroots method is another way that we have considered involving ourselves with the PBA. However, this program is not cheap either, and you create no national exposure through this program at all. It would benefit pro shops who have PBA members as owners or employees, but from the research studies we have done, there aren't enough of these pro shops to warrant spending this type of money either.
Instead of registering with the PBA, we have done our best to promote our equipment as well as sponsor tournaments and bowlers on the amateur level. In addition, we have kept our pricing lower than our competition to try and save our consumer some money (on both our mid-priced balls and our high performance equipment). We understand that bowling is not like golf, and not many bowlers want to spend $300 on a bowling ball. I know there are some pro shops who do not pass this savings on to the consumer, but unfortunately that is out of our control.
hartungrj - You are partially right. During national and regional PBA tournaments, our equipment cannot be used period. However, tournaments like the US Open are actually governed by the USBC up until the TV finals, so bowlers can use our equipment during the tournament, just not on the PBA governed telecast.
I hope this helps explain our position a little bit, and I would be more than happy to answer general questions. Please don't ask for specific details on costs, total production, sales etc, because those are confidential and I cannot give out specifics.
Fire away,
Jason Wonders
Visionary Bowling Products
Post by: VBPadvertising on August 13, 2008, 03:49:17 PM
Guess it's time to chime in again...LOL
The PBA registration is and always has been a pretty hot topic with our company. There are many factors that go into our decision, and while I can't go into all of them with you, I will give a basic outline.
1) Registration fees- PBA registration fees are nearing $130,000. This registration simply allows PBA bowlers to use our equipment, and does not mean that any of the exempt players would use it, nor does it mean that the equipment would get any exposure on TV.
2) Staff Members - In order to get any benefit out of being registered, you really have to put atleast 1-2 players on staff. This would include a base salary and expenses. Also, there would have to be incentives for the bowler when they make the shows and/or win a telecast. For a season, the minimum you could assume would be around $60-70,000.
3) Ball Rep - Every player on tour wants to have a ball rep with him. They are in charge of making sure the bowler has the correct ball with the right layouts, surface etc. This includes a salary and expenses, which again usually amounts to about $50-60,000
4) Incentives - Each time a bowler uses your equipment on a telecast, they receive an incentive from the ball manufacturer. This could range anywhere from $3-10,000 for each time it makes a show. Obviously, if you are involved with the PBA, you want it to make the show as often as possible, but having it on TV comes at a price.
5) Balls have to be supplied for the tour truck. This usually amounts to atleast $7-10,000 a year.
By the time you are done being involved with the PBA, our out of pocket costs come close to $300,000. Now, that being said, you have to sell a ton of balls to make up that amount of money. Now, I'm not going to go into actual sales figures, but to keep things very simple let's assume the following:
Assumption 1) Profit margin without advertising expenses is 25% (assuming that we don't do any additional advertising with the PBA)
Assumption 2) Avg wholesale price on a ball is $90 (this would include mid-priced and high performance sales to both pro shops and distributors)
From this, the average profit per ball would be $22.50 (without advertising, marketing, commissions for salesman, shipping etc.). Now, you divide the expense by the profit and you find that you have to sell and additional 13,333 balls just to break even.
Unfortunately, the PBA is not the marketing tool that it used to be. At one point, anytime a ball showed up on a telecast, bowlers called and ordered it the following Monday. That is simply not the case anymore. This is most likely a combination of the fact that viewership is not what it used to be, there aren't nearly as many sanctioned bowlers anymore, and there are a lot more balls to choose from now.
When we were registered, our bowlers made a number of telecasts, and won several PBA and PWBA tournaments, and not once did it create a significant increase in sales the following week. Sure, there was a small blip in sales, but a 10% increase in sales over a 2-3 week period is not a significant amount, and is not even close to the amount necessary to break even.
I would love to be registered with the PBA, so that everyone who wanted to could use our equipment, but we would be doing the business a serious injustice if we market using a method that we know is going to cost a lot more than we are going to get back in return.
The grassroots method is another way that we have considered involving ourselves with the PBA. However, this program is not cheap either, and you create no national exposure through this program at all. It would benefit pro shops who have PBA members as owners or employees, but from the research studies we have done, there aren't enough of these pro shops to warrant spending this type of money either.
Instead of registering with the PBA, we have done our best to promote our equipment as well as sponsor tournaments and bowlers on the amateur level. In addition, we have kept our pricing lower than our competition to try and save our consumer some money (on both our mid-priced balls and our high performance equipment). We understand that bowling is not like golf, and not many bowlers want to spend $300 on a bowling ball. I know there are some pro shops who do not pass this savings on to the consumer, but unfortunately that is out of our control.
hartungrj - You are partially right. During national and regional PBA tournaments, our equipment cannot be used period. However, tournaments like the US Open are actually governed by the USBC up until the TV finals, so bowlers can use our equipment during the tournament, just not on the PBA governed telecast.
I hope this helps explain our position a little bit, and I would be more than happy to answer general questions. Please don't ask for specific details on costs, total production, sales etc, because those are confidential and I cannot give out specifics.
Fire away,
Jason Wonders
Visionary Bowling Products
Edited on 8/13/2008 3:52 PM
Post by: getuaload on August 13, 2008, 04:10:03 PM
Thanks Jason
--------------------
TO BE THE MAN, YOU HAVE TO BEAT THE MAN
Post by: icewall on August 13, 2008, 04:12:52 PM
I dont blame you for not being pba registered. maybe one day they will change things and bowling will be more popular on tv but until then I dont see any small company paying.
I just want to say thanks jason. at least you let us know why you stand where you do on the pba matter.
--------------------
Visionary Test Staff 08/09
all visionary this year
blurple
ogre ss
glad.
glad. pearl
Post by: Moose Nugget on August 13, 2008, 06:14:14 PM
Thanks for providing an explanation about your business descision concerning PBA.
I understand why you aren't going in that direction but it still doesn't change the fact that I am selfish and wish VBP were PBA registered!
Post by: rackattack on August 13, 2008, 07:07:18 PM
I thought I'd seen Visionary on old telcasts but wasn't sure.
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It's all about the X
Post by: drillbit on August 13, 2008, 10:29:16 PM
Just curious.
drillbit
Post by: scotts33 on August 13, 2008, 10:51:17 PM
There is no $$$ in the PBA.
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Scott
Post by: gsback on August 14, 2008, 09:57:06 AM
I remembered some of what we talked about Jason, but couldn't recall it all. But as many have chimed in, it just goes to show that VBP cares as this topic could easily be brushed aside and left alone.....but you took the time to respond because people care....and you do.
--------------------
BR.com.....going down the toilet one nugget at a time!!
g thing is back....with a vengeance!!
Post by: VBPadvertising on August 14, 2008, 11:30:52 AM
Unfortunately, if you are bowling in these tournaments, and you qualify for the televised finals, you have to switch balls if you continue.
This is an issue that we have been discussing with the USBC for several years now. It does not seem right, that a bowler can be bowling in an event where the governing body is the USBC, yet have to switch balls for the finals. The claim is that the USBC portion of both the US Open and Masters is the body of the tournament, and the finals are treated as a separate tournament governed by the PBA.
Jason
Post by: TWOHAND834 on August 14, 2008, 11:47:49 AM
--------------------
Steven Vance
Pro Shop Operator
If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Post by: BigWillyStyle on August 14, 2008, 10:24:51 PM
quote:
I hope this helps explain our position a little bit, and I would be more than happy to answer general questions. Please don't ask for specific details on costs, total production, sales etc, because those are confidential and I cannot give out specifics.
Fire away,
Jason Wonders
Visionary Bowling Products
Edited on 8/13/2008 3:52 PM
May I ask roughly how much it is for the grassroots? As I have said previously, I am not dropping Visionary equipment, so whichever way you decide to go I'll still be throwing y'all...just would like to know about how much it costs...
Thanks for the great Customer Service...as always!
Big Willy Style
PS...on a completely different side note, maybe we should have a group...like the Track Hitmen and the F.O.S. for Lane#1. Should start brainstorming....
--------------------
Just my $0.02 so take it for what the Foreign Exchange values it at!
"I was raised by a cup of coffee..."
***This message brought to you by the A.O.B.U.B.O.A. (Assembly Of Back-Up Bowlers Of America) which is now taking applications***
Honorary Member of the F.O.S. (and also the best back-up bowler the Saws have ever had)!
Visionary Test Staff Member '08-'09
Post by: nextbowler on August 14, 2008, 10:56:51 PM
return? The PBA and the TV announcers do nothing to promote any equip-
ment, they don't even mention any names. The women do more by promoting
"what's in the bag." Why pay out the money and get nothing in return?
Post by: on August 15, 2008, 12:51:58 PM
If I remember correctly, the All Tour Registration was in the neighborhood of $65,000 which allowed us to have the equipment used on any non televised PBA event. The Grassroots I believe was in the neighborhood of $45,000.
Part of the reason that we did not go grassroots, is because a large number of regional bowlers are dropping their cards. Unfortunately, with expenses and prize funds the way they are, it is getting harder and harder for a regional player to break even, and virtually impossible for them to make any significant money. Many of the good regional players are pulling away from the PBA in order to bowl in the more lucrative amateur tournaments. You can make more in one of these, than you can winning 5 regional events.
The other thing about the regional program, is that it has no fan base. The only people watching the regional tournaments are usually family of the bowlers, so we get virtually no exposure from the tournaments.
Thanks again,
Jason Wonders
Post by: VBPadvertising on August 15, 2008, 12:53:01 PM
If I remember correctly, the All Tour Registration was in the neighborhood of $65,000 which allowed us to have the equipment used on any non televised PBA event. The Grassroots I believe was in the neighborhood of $45,000.
Part of the reason that we did not go grassroots, is because a large number of regional bowlers are dropping their cards. Unfortunately, with expenses and prize funds the way they are, it is getting harder and harder for a regional player to break even, and virtually impossible for them to make any significant money. Many of the good regional players are pulling away from the PBA in order to bowl in the more lucrative amateur tournaments. You can make more in one of these, than you can winning 5 regional events.
The other thing about the regional program, is that it has no fan base. The only people watching the regional tournaments are usually family of the bowlers, so we get virtually no exposure from the tournaments.
Thanks again,
Jason Wonders
Post by: Mike Austin on August 15, 2008, 11:12:17 PM
Really, the only reason I haven't tried any Visionary stuff is because I have been still bowling regionals. Their stuff is good, sold some in my shop.
Keep up the good work Jason!!
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Astros, Rockets, Texans, Cougars!! My teams all the time!!