win a ball from Bowling.com

Author Topic: Junior Forum is Dead  (Read 4421 times)

ShermDawg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Nothing Hits Like A Hammer
Junior Forum is Dead
« on: October 07, 2006, 05:13:56 AM »
Look at it... need i say more ... so sad
--------------------
Mason Sherman
Hammer Amateur Staff
"Nothing Hits Like A Hammer."
Talk is Cheap, Just Bring it...
Mason Sherman
Hammer Regional Staff
Vise Regional Staff
www.hammerbowling.com
www.viseinserts.com
www.facebook.com/mason.sherman

 

LuckyLefty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17348
Re: Junior Forum is Dead
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2006, 04:42:13 PM »
bored...I can spruce it up!

See next post in Junior Bowling.

REgards,

Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

tourpower

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 80
Re: Junior Forum is Dead
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2006, 02:35:15 AM »
Hello Everyone,

Just a few things to point out before you continue to speak your mind. Duke of Earl, you asked if there were 3,500 members. That is wrong. The number is closer to 2,000. This means that only 500 kids that have a membership are not going to Jr. Gold every year.

For everyone that thinks that people should be exempt, that is ridiculous. It's not like the best bowlers in the country do not qualify for this tournament. The best of the best are at this tournament every year no matter what. No need to give people exemptions.

Now onto the topic of how many people are in the tournament every year. A lot of people say that there are too many people in this tournament. Some say there isn't enough. I think the number is good where it is. You need the kids that average 180 to be there to gain experience. It is a chance for them to learn what they are not good at and get better at it before next years tournament. Unfortunately, for a majority of junior bowlers in the country, Jr. Gold is the only tournament where they are challenged with a Sport condition. If you look at "almost" all Jr. Team USA members (past and present) all of them have had a bad year(s) and learned from it to make the team in subsequent years. Without those years of trying they would have never known what to work on. I know there are some kids that you think shouldn't be bowling, but you are going to get that no matter how the tournament is run.

With the addition of the Youth Open Championships this year, hopefully, we can cut some of the kids out of Jr. Gold who don't belong and are not ready for Jr. Gold. We also need to add bowlers who are young and need national experience to be ready for Jr. Gold in following years.

These are just some of my opinions on USBC's standpoint. Hope this will help you see a different side of the story.
--------------------
Blanchard

"Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it."

Duke of Earl

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 95
Re: Junior Forum is Dead
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2006, 07:13:29 AM »
Mr. Blanchard, I am aware of your bowling prowess and respect your position. However, we will have to agree to disagree on some points. My info on the number of JG members came indirectly from higher ups at USBC...not sure where yours came from. I don't know if the number is higher or lower but my note said I didn't believe it anyway.

Just for the record, I have been to the last three Nationals. As for the point about "experience" from the Nationals, while I agree it's a valuable experience from the standpoint of bowling in different houses with different conditions over several days with all the people watching, the "lane" experience of doing this once a year will not make a future Team USA member or a better bowler and you should know this.

The problem is that as you said, most of these kids bowl on this stuff once a year and don't have anywhere else to practice. This practice is critical as it not only prepares them for tournaments like this but gets them ready for bowling at the collegiate level and beyond. Those of us who have seen it know the conditions at JG the last few years have often been called tougher than those on regular college shots or even some of the PBA patterns. Clearly, the collegiate kids have a huge advantage from bowling on more similar conditions during the year.

With bowling on a general decline, you have less and less single proprietors/owners who care more about their customers wants and an increase of AMF, Brunswick and Bowl America who care more about Glow Bowling and Birthday parties which rake in money for them. Point is, they don't want to be bothered with putting out these other conditions for a few. Even most adult bowlers don't want to be bothered as they would rather average 220 on an easy house shot than to be challenged with how good they really are. It's like the difference between playing a golf course from the front tees or the back. So unless kids are able to find an avenue to bowl on these types of conditions more often, chances are they still don't have much of a chance.


Duke of Earl

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 95
Re: Junior Forum is Dead
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2006, 01:42:47 PM »
You MUST listen to the Phantom Radio discussion with Dalkin and Chuck Pezzano. Still don't think youth bowling and bowling in general will die? I just heard this "visionary" talk of the failure of youth bowling through awards and scholarships (his exact words). "It needs to be more of our recrreational fabric". I guess he wants more glow bowling and birthday parties which the proprietors are more than willing to accomodate.

Folks, if you love this game, get off your behinds and do something about this!

Silencer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 822
Re: Junior Forum is Dead
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2006, 03:24:17 AM »
One last point from me is that they do have wayyyyyyy to many donators...but they do need enough to add to the scholarship and to pay for the trips and equipment needed for the bowlers on team usa when they go to the different tournaments. Like sending a team of 5 and 2 coaches to Germany for a week probably costs like atleast 7500 bucks
--------------------
And Then...........

I left another 10 pin

J-Rad Lawrence
And Then...........

I left another 10 pin

J-Rad Lawrence

Duke of Earl

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 95
Re: Junior Forum is Dead
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2006, 07:46:50 AM »
Geez, maybe they are using the interest from the smart accounts but whose to say. They have $18 Million banked in Smart and are paying 3 major financial investment institutions to help manage the money. Guess what? Over the last 5 years the accounts have paid no more than 1%, YES THAT'S 1 as in ONE and UNO. Talk about mismanagement. If I did that in my job I would have been fired years ago. Or are they raking it off for themselves and not admitting to how much they really make and using it for other things? FACTS.....but just a thought!

BallsDeep

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 870
Re: Junior Forum is Dead
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2006, 02:35:20 PM »
The comments from Blanchard are very good, and basically bring out the fact that much of JOG is a learning process, a process that one needs to partake in order to get better.  Perhaps this is also the flaw of the system, that there aren't enough difficult shots out there for bowlers to get experience on.  I know one of the higher finishers that over the summer bowled on a sport shot two or three times per week, in league and practice settings.  While very good, how can most compete with this when in certain areas there aren't such shots to be bowled on?  Even in JOG is a learning experience, without constant work and practice on similar shots there is no way that one can make a marked improvement from year to year.

The solution seems simple, to help facilitate the growth of sport shot leagues throughout the country.  There is a sad truth that many of these leagues don't work out.  The shots are too rare, and people like to score, so they opt for ths.  Many leagues start with interest and then by the next year the # of people that join are cut in half.  

I do believe that there are certain steps that can be put in place to help the sport as a whole.  In my junior league last year there were around 20 coaches, yet in my sport shot league there were none.  I believe that there could be a harmony between the two concepts.  One doesn't want to alienate the young bowlers, and a sport shot will not truly help a 140 average bowler, so there should be separate divisions in a league where one can compete on different shots.  Lets say one would bowl on an easy ths until age 10.  Then for the next division, the ths would be modified to have an out of bounds area, and this division would take one until age 15, and from then fourth there would be a sport shot that varies from week to week.  Special requests for moving up prior to attaining a certain age could be made.  In addition to these changes, there should be literature explaining the difference in shots so as not to make those that were bowling on a more difficult shot feel alienated.  This process is the ideal, and will provide the best bowling environment possible, but other smaller changes could come about, also.

Since the above proposal is difficult to carry out, I'll offer a couple other alternatives.  Make the ths, across the board more difficult.  It is very easy right now in most houses.  When bowling was at its high, the shots were more challenging, so I doubt that a change, if gradual, and explained would cause too much of an initial outcry, and over the long run it would certainly be better.  Make high school, and JOG qualifying events held on a sport shot.  This will give experience, and separate the cream of the crop.  High school tourneys are currently BS, and that’s not just frustration speaking from last year.  Those tourneys are based on three games, and in such a short format, on such an easy shot, anyone can do well.  Lengthen the format to at least 4, preferably 5 games and put it on a difficult shot.

Whatever the case, I will reiterate my previous point, their needs to be people that step up, and the USBC needs to pay attention to what bowlers want and need.

--------------------
four fried chickens and a coke[/size=4]

Let me say something, let me say something...
AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

LuckyLefty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17348
Re: Junior Forum is Dead
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2006, 02:47:35 PM »
At a small gathering I attended from Ballreviews.

Richie Sposato gave the opinion that sport shots reward a "grind it out game".
Open conditions reward a powerful release he stated!

(Of course right after that he went and tour up a sport shot).

Proving his final sentence...the pro tour rewards a combination of both!

In our area I've seen some local junior gold qualifying and the condition was so tough it reminded me of having pro golf courses and then fairways only 20 yards wide. I could only see the smallest number of boards played as the key to success.  I wasn't sure if the cream of the crop were rewarded but most people couldn't hack the condition(it was tough) and I felt like I was watching a demonstration of who hit the most accurate 8 iron in golf!  Not necessarily the "BEST" game.

I did not see this same condition when I stopped and watched some of the junior gold qualifying in Florida...or at least not to that extent.  I believed it was tough but playable if one had a LOT of familiarity with the patterns and reading the patterns.

Summary...are the tightest of conditions truly a demonstration of bringing out..."the cream".  Is there any validity to Richie Sposato's claims?  I think so and he is quite a bowler I think also!

REgards,

Luckylefty

--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

BallsDeep

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 870
Re: Junior Forum is Dead
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2006, 03:29:07 PM »
This is also a valid point.  I have taken defeat at the hands of lesser bowlers, because of just that fact.  People with simpler games that throw the ball up the boards are more likely to have success on more difficult shots than bowlers that typically use less predictable lines.  I can move and throw the ball up the boards, and I actually like doing so, but on most ths, its simply not the shot, I can score better swinging the ball, and thus the strength of my game is hooking the ball to a degree.

This being said, I'd still rather bowl on such shots because accuracy, I feel, is the fundamental skill at the heart of bowling.  At one point it was basically all there was, now one needs more to their game, but it is still the basis of the game.  The other fundamentals, I feel are versatility, and strategy.  The game can take into account power, revs, and carry, but these valuse should not rise above those of the fundamentals as I have described them, if they are allowed to the game is not a game of skill, it is just physical prowess.  If these modern changes work in conjunction with accuracy, versatility, and strategy then the game is merely being kept fresh, and having new and interesting elements added to it.
--------------------
four fried chickens and a coke[/size=4]

Let me say something, let me say something...
AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Duke of Earl

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 95
Re: Junior Forum is Dead
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2006, 08:26:49 PM »
Lucky Lefty, although I don't respond to your notes because I often disagree with you, I have to agree with your point this time. As kids have bowled more and figured out some of these patterns, some bowl good on it but are not the best bowlers. I won't mention names but there was at least one bowler who made last year's semi finals only because he threw the ball so straight and was able to find a playable line to the pocket each day. Clearly, he is not one of the best 16 junior bowlers in the country. This is also why USBC has changed the format to make sure that "one of their own" doesn't get locked out.......unless they bowl really badly. Even then, I'm not sure the best really "make it". Look how many team members from the year before didn't make it. Then again, look at someone like Bolosan who does well for two years, including finishing first, and then is never asked to bowl in a tournament.

As someone I have discussed this with has told me on a number of occasions, within a few years they will probably only take the winner onto the team and then "select" the remaining team. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

jrbowler

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
Re: Junior Forum is Dead
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2006, 08:32:56 PM »
I guess even if you win, you're not assured of bowling.  Chris got the raw deal on this one.

tourpower

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 80
Re: Junior Forum is Dead
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2006, 05:28:17 AM »
Hello,

 You all make valid points. But, at the same time, you don't know all the facts about who is getting picked. Boloson was only eligible for one tournament this year and he was not selected. All the other tournaments had age restrictions. Yes you are correct, if you win Jr. Gold doesn't mean you are guaranteed to bowl in a tournament. Boloson is a great bowler and will be in the top next year for sure. Just because you dont bowl an event, doesnt mean that you are an less of a player that the other team members. You have all earned your spot to wear USA on your back.
 To all you who think that Jr. Gold doesn't get the best bowlers, you are kidding yourself. Every single person who makes that team has earned there spot on that team because of their ability to adjust to different lane conditions. Why don't you give prop's to the people who make it instead of doubting them. Every year all you hear about is who made it and why they shouldn't be on the team. What haven't they done to prove that they deserve to be there?
--------------------
Blanchard

"Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it."

Lane1fanatic

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 173
Re: Junior Forum is Dead
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2006, 12:42:35 AM »
If there are age restrictions on tournaments then USBC should lower the age limit to include only those that are eligible to bowl. 21 is too high!!

BallsDeep

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 870
Re: Junior Forum is Dead
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2006, 03:16:19 PM »
quote:
If there are age restrictions on tournaments then USBC should lower the age limit to include only those that are eligible to bowl. 21 is too high!!


By keeping the age limit at 21, they allow competitive bowlers that are going to college to stay in competitive leagues and tournaments without having to pay the high costs usually associated with competitive money leagues.  The bowlers in tournaments like the JBT's are generally better than the bowlers of all but the best and most expensive leagues / tournaments.  They should not have a different standard for the Team USA tournaments however.  If they want to keep it at 21 and in my opinion they should then do that for both, if not, then drop both to the same level.
--------------------
four fried chickens and a coke[/size=4]

Let me say something, let me say something...
AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH