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Author Topic: "Adults" to be bowling on Jr Team USA  (Read 2223 times)

KATHI

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"Adults" to be bowling on Jr Team USA
« on: December 19, 2007, 08:56:10 AM »
Why is no one screaming about this change in Jr Gold rules for 2009???

These "adults" don't even have to compete with the whole group of kids. They get to go to the adult Team Trials and get "picked" to bowl with the kids.
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Kathi McCaw

 

bassace

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Re: "Adults" to be bowling on Jr Team USA
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2007, 08:28:32 PM »
The only thing "adult" about them is their card.  They still have to meet the youth age requirements.

KATHI

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Re: "Adults" to be bowling on Jr Team USA
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2007, 09:14:01 PM »
What about the youth requirement of never having bowled for cash? Is that going by the wayside too?
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Kathi McCaw

KATHI

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Re: "Adults" to be bowling on Jr Team USA
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2007, 04:50:38 AM »
That is my point. Team Trials are for adults. Jr. Gold is for youth members. One requirement for youth membership is never having bowled for cash.
My feeling is that USBC is hoping that this rule change will get kids who have not made the Jr Team thru the Jr Gold Championship to come up with the hefty entry fee  for the Trials in a second attempt to make it. They probably want to make up the money for the adults who now won't be going to "compete" against the pros who have already been "selected".

USBC should go back to taking the top 8 (or 10 if they want a larger team) and coaching those who make it for whichever competition may be that year. This "selecting" favorites to "guarantee" medals at competition goes directly against a format of qualifying. And those that win should be guaranteed to bowl.

And if you have to be under a certain age to compete with the Jr Team, USBC needs to stop taking membership dues from the older juniors! At this time, dues are still accepted from Juniors of 21.

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Kathi McCaw

SKIDSNAP

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Re: "Adults" to be bowling on Jr Team USA
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2007, 08:48:11 AM »
I think it has to do with the FIQ age regarding "youths"

ThongPrincess

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Re: "Adults" to be bowling on Jr Team USA
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2007, 10:24:09 AM »
quote:
My feeling is that USBC is hoping that this rule change will get kids who have not made the Jr Team thru the Jr Gold Championship to come up with the hefty entry fee  for the Trials in a second attempt to make it. They probably want to make up the money for the adults who now won't be going to "compete" against the pros who have already been "selected".


Why do you think youth would be willing to pony up the fees for 2 spots men and 2 spots women when the adults aren't?  

quote:
USBC should go back to taking the top 8 (or 10 if they want a larger team) and coaching those who make it for whichever competition may be that year. This "selecting" favorites to "guarantee" medals at competition goes directly against a format of qualifying. And those that win should be guaranteed to bowl.


They are following the way of Olympic team qualifications which now allow professionals to compete.  The USA was the only nation limiting competition to amatures.  Team Trials are at the same time as the tour.  By giving a free pass to those who have already proven they can compete at the highest level by qualifying as exempt players (at least for the men) does not make them have to choose the trials over the tour.  As for the women, these ladies have also proven themselves when there was a women's tour.

The idea is to make the best team possible to represent out country.  I do not necessarily agree with only 2 spots from the trials, but that is not my decision to make.

quote:
And if you have to be under a certain age to compete with the Jr Team, USBC needs to stop taking membership dues from the older juniors! At this time, dues are still accepted from Juniors of 21.


There is more to youth competition than Team USA and Jr Team USA.  Many stay youth to compete in tournaments for scholarship money.  Having the age at 21, as it is, allows them to continue to earn money for their college expenses while they are in college.  There is more to Youth Bowling than Jr Team USA.
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Quaker

Edited on 12/20/2007 11:25 AM
USBC Bronze Coach

"I cannot change the direction of the wind but I can adjust my sails to reach my destination." Jimmy Dean
Quaker 10/93 - 4/07

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KATHI

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Re: "Adults" to be bowling on Jr Team USA
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2007, 11:19:47 AM »
Unfortunately the kids and their parents will probably be willing to pony up the entry fee for the Team Trials as the top 2 competitors under 20 who are not already on the Jr Team will get Jr Team spots. Just the fact that there are a sigificantly fewer number of entrants in this second event (as opposed to 1500 at JOG) the "chances" of success will be perceived as much better.

I honestly don't care whaT USBC does with the adult team. I work with kids. The Jr Team should be for Juniors. And all who enter the tourament should have the expectation that should they come in the top 8 (or 10) they will be on the team and coached by those top coaches and allowed to compete as a team.

There is more to youth bowling than Jr Gold. But USBC promotes Jr Gold as the ultimate goal for the best of the youth. And they should be held accountable to a higher standard --- if winning is what they want as they state then they should take the winners of their own event and go with them as a team instead of trying to pick their "favorites".
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Kathi McCaw

REvans284

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Re: "Adults" to be bowling on Jr Team USA
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2007, 11:38:27 AM »
Youth bowlers can compete for money as long as it doesn't exceed $500.  If it does, they can still compete in the competition (singles) as long as before the competition starts they sign a contract with the promotor saying if they cash more than $500 the money with either be transfered into scholorship money and deposited into the smart fund or the money will be declined.

Later,

REvans284

KATHI

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Re: "Adults" to be bowling on Jr Team USA
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2007, 12:04:49 PM »
Rule 400
A. Except as provided in Item B, a youth may not bowl or substitute in any bowling activity which offers any of the following as prizes:

1. Cash or bonds.
2. Merchandise exceeding $500 in value.
B. Youth may bowl in singles competitions (including side competitions/brackets) offering such prizes, provided, prior to bowling:

The competition agrees to award the youth’s prize in the form of a scholarship; or
The youth signs a form waiving his/her rights to any prize in violation of this rule.

As you can see above...youth bowlers may NOT compete for cash. If they wish to enter an adult singles competition offering cash prizes (such as the Team Trials beginning this past year) they must sign a waiver stating they are willing to  decline any winnings in violation of the above. If tournament promotor is willing to convert any cash winnings into scholarship dollars and deposit such funds into SMART that can be covered on the waiver.
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Kathi McCaw

willie makeit

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Re: "Adults" to be bowling on Jr Team USA
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2007, 01:20:20 PM »
Kathi, as SP said, why should you be surprised. Quite honestly, I'm surprised they are taking 4 from JG and I would not be surprised to find this decrease to a smaller number. Reason is simple...they want to be able to pick who they want but at the same time not kill the cash cow. This is another way out. I've talked to people who agreed with me that they would get to a point where they would only guarantee a spot to the winner and then fill the spots with whomever they wanted. It makes sense to them when you look at a number of very good bowlers whom they invested time and coaching in who then did not make the cut or finish high enough for consideration the following year.

KATHI

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Re: "Adults" to be bowling on Jr Team USA
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2007, 02:01:20 PM »
Guys...
I didn't say I was surprised. Nothing USBC does will probably surprise me as I actually expect the worst from them.

What surprises me is that no one else seems to give a damn. I'd expect everyone in Jr Gold - kids and parents to be raising the roof. I'd love to see them all keep their money and boycott both tournaments.

There are other tournaments - BEST, MAIN EVENT, NEXT, etc. that offer very nice scholarship opportunities without all this other crap at a reasonable cost.
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Kathi McCaw

REvans284

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Re: "Adults" to be bowling on Jr Team USA
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2007, 10:10:25 PM »
quote:
Rule 400
A. Except as provided in Item B, a youth may not bowl or substitute in any bowling activity which offers any of the following as prizes:

1. Cash or bonds.
2. Merchandise exceeding $500 in value.
B. Youth may bowl in singles competitions (including side competitions/brackets) offering such prizes, provided, prior to bowling:

The competition agrees to award the youth’s prize in the form of a scholarship; or
The youth signs a form waiving his/her rights to any prize in violation of this rule.

As you can see above...youth bowlers may NOT compete for cash. If they wish to enter an adult singles competition offering cash prizes (such as the Team Trials beginning this past year) they must sign a waiver stating they are willing to  decline any winnings in violation of the above. If tournament promotor is willing to convert any cash winnings into scholarship dollars and deposit such funds into SMART that can be covered on the waiver.
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Kathi McCaw


I took it from here.

http://www.bowl.com/highschool/awardsEligibility.aspx

2nd paragraph 3rd line.

"A USBC Youth member may bowl in adult singles competitions that offer more valuable merchandise prizes or cash as long as, prior to the competition, the bowler signs a prize waiver refusing such awards or the competition organizers agree to substitute comparable scholarship awards for USBC Youth winners.

USBC Youth bowlers may earn scholarship awards of any amount. All scholarship awards earned in USBC certified competition are managed through USBC's SMART program."

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I knew as long as they signed the waiver they can bowl in Singles competition offering cash as long as what they win gets transferred into scholorship money. Its in compliance to rule 400.  I worded it wrong in the first post meaning you can bowl in competition for money. And I confused myself and it didnt sound right.  Sorry.

But one of our center offers a tournament on Sundays that is on the PBA shot they are bowling on that week. It's $250 (I think) for first place, and youth bowlers are allowed to enter, they just have to sign a waiver and if they cash or win the money gets transferred into scholorship and put in the Smart Fund.

Later,

REvans284

Edited on 12/20/2007 11:27 PM

tgp3

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Re: "Adults" to be bowling on Jr Team USA
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2007, 11:09:36 PM »
I'll begin by saying that while I don't often post on this (or any) public message forums, I feel this thread warrants a response.

I think this current set of changes to Junior Gold (return of the old format and the expansion of Jr. Team along with multiple opportunities to qualify) are the best changes I've seen to this program since I bowled my first Jr. Gold in 2004.  Kudos especially to the WTBA for changing the age requirement for world youth events to 20, this change was also needed.  

Essentially, it has never made sense to me how we as a country were content selecting our national team based on only one weeks performance each year, as opposed to a system which ensures that we field the most competitive team possible for international competition.  The change to allow players to qualify out of the adult team trials is a huge step in the right direction.  This is for a number of reasons.  First of which being that it opens the team up to talent that would not have had the opportunity to qualify otherwise (non-youth members).  Now, its important to look at other countries which we compete against, and note that in those nations, youth and adult status is not treated in the same manner it is here.  For example, at last years World Youth Championships, guys like Osku and Jason Belmonte were still competing.  By limiting our team based on youth vs. adult status, we were putting ourselves at a huge disadvantage to the rest of the world, and this particular change corrects that.

As far as the "second chance" to qualify goes, it makes complete sense from a team strength standpoint to select at least part of the team at the Adult Team Trials.  The Team Trials are, in my opinion, a more fair test of ability than the Jr. Gold Championships.  Here's why.  Reason one is the single squad that Team USA Trials is.  No squad inequity, no one house playing easier in the morning than others, etc.  Every player in that tournament is exposed to the same lane condition at the same time, as opposed to two days difference in some cases at Jr. Gold. Second, the quality of the field at the Team Trials is head and shoulders higher than that of Jr. Gold.  Jr Gold has recently (as evidenced by last years format change), become more of a participatory event, than an event designed to select our countries national team.  Yes, there are still some players at Team Trials who perhaps should not be, but percentage wise, there is a much higher percent of players at Team Trials with the capability of making the team than at Jr Gold.  This effects things in a number of ways.  Higher field quality usually translates into lanes breaking down in a more "normal" manner.  Additionally, this higher field quality leads to less distractions during the event, namely caused by those stubborn few entrants who have given up, and seemingly forgotten they are a part of a national event.  

These changes are a huge step in the right direction of fielding the best team we possibly can each year to compete internationally.  Kudos to USBC and WTBA for changing the age requirements, as well as the selection criteria and format.  

Take Care, Happy Holidays
Tim Pfeifer

Jim12387

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Re: "Adults" to be bowling on Jr Team USA
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2007, 11:50:34 AM »
Tim, as someone who made jr. team USA and has put in the hard work, the changes seem to be a great improvement to the rules. You feel that your hard work should outweigh the 1 week of competition. However, for the youth bowlers that aren't exactly on your skill level or experience level, they will now realize that they have no shot at making the team. The point of the tournament is to qualify for jr. team USA, that is the only reason why I bowled. By BASICALLY telling the kids that the team is selected prior to anyone even bowling and picking favorites gives the kids NO INCENTIVE to even bowl. This is part of the reason why I jumped ship early and didn't bowl junior gold. I knew I was team USA material, but I knew a selection would NEVER happen if I finished in the top 10, because I was relatively new to the Junior Gold scene, didn't have extensive coaching, etc.

The problem with the sport now is politics. The changes are AMAZING from the strength of team usa point of view. The changed give the best team possible. However, we are dealing with kids here. What people need to realize is that rejection is hard to swallow. As we become adults, we learn to accept that only the best make it. Yes, it is hard to swallow knowing that you will never be good enough, but this harsh truth shouldn't be a factor right now for JR BOWLERS. Do it for Adult team USA but not for the kids. Let the kids have some fun, and most importantly, keep their HOPE up for as long as they are junior bowlers.

FINAL STANCE: USBC gets worse and worse.
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Jim Bosse

Edited on 12/22/2007 12:54 PM